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Thread: Character Creation [Introduction]

  1. #1

    Character Creation [Introduction]

    I'm actually taking a page out of Troy's book. I'm going to break one of the large discussions down into a number of manageable pieces. Obviously, the point of these discussions is going to be character creation. Players will be given a number of “points” (whatever we end up calling them) and will be able to spend these points on Spell Circles and Disciplines. We've discussed both these topics before and have wiki entries on both. You may want to review them here:

    Spell Circles

    Disciplines

    The current question is whether or not points should be spent on anything else. In MoM some races had a point cost. I want to avoid this in WoM, but I thought it was worth bringing up to get other opinions on the subject.

    I hope to do another post tomorrow that will start shaping the character creation process. Needless to say we have to have that finished before work can begin on the preset Sorcerer Lord's. The way each AI will play will depend greatly on how it's character is put together. Until we have the system in place we can't begin shaping them.
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  2. #2
    Battlemage
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    Unless I missed it there seems to be no discipline affecting starting plane? I can see advantage starting on some other plane than material.

    Also. I'm sort of wondering if there are things that could influence your starting location on a map? Maybe a discipline that allows you to start with automatic resource node(s)?
    Last edited by Beregar; 10-22-2013 at 07:14 PM.

  3. #3
    Abecedarian Mage
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    The point cost in MoM is a package cost for starting on the alternate plane, with several benefits: Stronger races, stronger lairs and nodes (both guardians and rewards, including mana from nodes), autmatically enchanted roads, possibly better weapons (from adamantium ore); also fewer competing wizards (though not on impossible).

    I wouldn't close the door on cost for races alone, but a similar package may be better, e.g. charging a bit for starting on the negative plane with the unhallowed (and not making them available without starting there if the negative plane exists in that game).

    Otherwise a simple tiering into weak - average - strong with associated cost could be a nice tool to quickly compensate for mishaps in the intended process of getting every race to a comparable power level - with the explicit target of doing real balancing in a later patch.

    ---------- Post added at 08:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Beregar View Post
    I'm sort of wondering if there are things that could influence your starting location on a map? Maybe a discipline that allows you to start with automatic resource node(s)?
    I would be hesitant to give out too large starting bonuses for creation points, because the result could too easily be that early rushers are unbeatable.

    So an additional special resource (ore, food) yes, one extra point of city size maybe, a mana node already rather not, extra units definitely not.

    ---------- Post added at 08:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:07 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
    May I ask to put the discipline descriptions on the overview page?

    Most are only half a line anyway, and the names aren't speaking enough unless you already know what they mean. When the description gets expanded, it should be put on the extra page, its availability indicated (details).
    E.g. (found one with a longer text)
    Oracle - divine coming events (details)
    Or, if you don't want to lose the flavor text
    Oracle - pierce the mists of time (details)
    This isn't as informative, but at least shows that there is more than a five-word explanation.

    Looking further, that means that these descriptions should likely also be on the discipline selection screen in the game (and not only in the hover popup).

  4. #4
    Archmage of the Outer Ring jamoecw's Avatar
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    what about one that eliminates certain victory conditions as options for the lord? like no allied victory, or no spell of mastery? others may win with such victories, but that lord cannot.

    betrayer - may not achieve an allied victory
    humble - may not achieve a spell of mastery victory
    peacekeeper - may not achieve a conquest victory (maybe not this one, since if you conquer the world who would stop you from doing the spell of mastery?)

  5. #5
    THE GRAND BACKER zdsdead's Avatar
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    Nice ideas Jamoecw
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  6. #6
    Abecedarian Mage
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamoecw View Post
    what about one that eliminates certain victory conditions as options for the lord? like no allied victory, or no spell of mastery? others may win with such victories, but that lord cannot.

    betrayer - may not achieve an allied victory
    humble - may not achieve a spell of mastery victory
    peacekeeper - may not achieve a conquest victory (maybe not this one, since if you conquer the world who would stop you from doing the spell of mastery?)
    These are no limitations in single player mode. Except for reaching the end-game screen, you can declare a game won at any time. The main obstacle between you and that end-game screen is the tedium of cleaning up.

    As you have noticed, conquest victory cannot be disabled in practice (and cannot be disabled in any game I know that has selectable victory conditions).

    I'd need to see the AI being effective at pushing for Spell of Mastery before I would be ready to discuss Humble as a limitation.

    In multiplayer, Humble may be a sensible option. It would be hard to balance, however, and thus I would only introduce it after there is experience with the multiplayer balance. Humble would likely be free points on small maps, where easrly wars are decisive and nobody gets even close to SoM, and at least dubious on large maps, where the main decisions in the end game revolve around either casting your own SoM or spell blasting somebody else's (and whose?) - most likely depending on the number of players in its utility.

    I don't think Betrayer is sensible in multiplayer for social reasons. If a game allows an alliance victory, the players entering it likely want to play alliances, and playing a Betrayer means spoiling what the game has been set up for. That spoiling can't be prevented, but you shouldn't get extra points for it.

  7. #7
    THE GRAND BACKER zdsdead's Avatar
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    But "Betrayer" in a single player game, seems quite good Imho.
    Elder Dragon, Grand Chancellor x 2, Conjurer x 2, and some other type of Backer

  8. #8
    We can add more disciplines for changing starting conditions. I just don't think race should be tied to that at all. I'm also not sure about packaging several benefits together. I think keeping each separate will offer more flexibility.

    Putting the discipline descriptions in the list is a good idea.

    Those are interesting discipline suggestions jamoecw. Still, we need to save new suggestions for another post. I'll plan to start one soon. We discussed disciplines a few months ago. Of course, we have a lot of new forum members now, so we probably do need to open it up for new suggestions.

    I plan to do the next post about character creation in the next few minutes
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
    I'm actually taking a page out of Troy's book. I'm going to break one of the large discussions down into a number of manageable pieces. Obviously, the point of these discussions is going to be character creation. Players will be given a number of “points” (whatever we end up calling them) and will be able to spend these points on Spell Circles and Disciplines. We've discussed both these topics before and have wiki entries on both. You may want to review them here:

    Spell Circles

    Disciplines

    The current question is whether or not points should be spent on anything else. In MoM some races had a point cost. I want to avoid this in WoM, but I thought it was worth bringing up to get other opinions on the subject.

    I hope to do another post tomorrow that will start shaping the character creation process. Needless to say we have to have that finished before work can begin on the preset Sorcerer Lord's. The way each AI will play will depend greatly on how it's character is put together. Until we have the system in place we can't begin shaping them.
    Man, life has been really hectic lately and I haven't had a chance to comment like I wanted.

    Anyway, I'm actually in favor of certain races costing points. I think this would be a terrific way to keep the vision of a faction alive while helping to balance thier power vs. the other races. For instance, our plain vanilla High Men faction should cost zero points. The Grey Elves, Dwarves, and probably Orcs should all cost 1. Undead and Dark Elves should be 2. Draconians should be 3. I have no idea what to think about Insectoids yet. This adds a little bit of strategic thinking right away but does not require an onerous cost to play one of the more powerful races.

    I know that we will be tight on schedule. There won't be a ton of rigorous beta testing to finely tweak the balances of the different factions. Thus, I think we may have to rely multiple methods of balance to make sure everyone has at least a fair chance at winning.
    My RPG Design and Theory Blog: http://socratesrpg.blogspot.com/

  10. #10
    THE GRAND BACKER zdsdead's Avatar
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    I thought a similar thing to you Troy with regard to racial points. My worry also is do we have the time?,to test all these things, If January's the proposed release date.
    Elder Dragon, Grand Chancellor x 2, Conjurer x 2, and some other type of Backer

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