Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 57

Thread: The Issue Of Unrest

  1. #11
    Kilobug, those are some very good points. Well done!

    The_Jackson, agreed.

    Troy:
    Enemies nearby – Good point.
    Swamp or desert – That depends on the race of the city. We might look at it like: If the city is built in inhospitable terrain for the race in question it causes additional unrest. Still, we need to think about it.
    Garrisoned by a different race – I don't like it. (Be fair. I like most of your ideas.) I think the “conquest penalty” suggested by The_Jackson is sufficient.

    Morak, I actually started this topic because of the Disciplines. I couldn't come up with numbers that would affect unrest until we had the baseline unrest worked out.

    Mmilleder, you make some good points there.

    Shadow Knight, I like the idea.

    OK, that's what I've got so far. I'm going to let this one stew for a few more days. I want to try to wrap it up early next week. We're working on the Disciplines right now and I need to get more of the numbers finalized.
    Everybody needs friends! Aaron's Facebook Page

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
    Kilobug, those are some very good points. Well done!

    The_Jackson, agreed.

    Troy:
    Enemies nearby – Good point.
    Swamp or desert – That depends on the race of the city. We might look at it like: If the city is built in inhospitable terrain for the race in question it causes additional unrest. Still, we need to think about it.
    Garrisoned by a different race – I don't like it. (Be fair. I like most of your ideas.) I think the “conquest penalty” suggested by The_Jackson is sufficient.

    Morak, I actually started this topic because of the Disciplines. I couldn't come up with numbers that would affect unrest until we had the baseline unrest worked out.

    Mmilleder, you make some good points there.

    Shadow Knight, I like the idea.

    OK, that's what I've got so far. I'm going to let this one stew for a few more days. I want to try to wrap it up early next week. We're working on the Disciplines right now and I need to get more of the numbers finalized.
    All of this looks good. I just hope that Unrest plays a little bit more of a role in WoM than it did in MoM. By the late game in MoM, it meant nothing anymore.
    My RPG Design and Theory Blog: http://socratesrpg.blogspot.com/

  3. #13
    Abecedarian Mage
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    196
    Quote Originally Posted by Troy_Costisick View Post
    All of this looks good. I just hope that Unrest plays a little bit more of a role in WoM than it did in MoM. By the late game in MoM, it meant nothing anymore.
    I think that impression comes from the difference between "won" and "over".

    If - as I strongly suggest - tax rate is the major driver for unrest (with extreme race hatred a close second), unrest will stop playing a major role as soon as you can put enough cities to producing gold so that you can lower taxes to zero.

    However, you need to be able to afford cities that don't produce military units, and you need to able to afford forgo the tax income.

    The counter to no unrest from no taxes is not more unrest from other sources, but enough pressure from other players that you just need all your production for military units (or city development) - either directly by making units, or indirectly by making money and flat-out buying the units at the front.

  4. #14
    Archmage of the Outer Ring jamoecw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    1,047
    is it possible to weight the factors that cause unrest to shift a bit from race to race?

    so say dwarfs have big issues with taxes, but elves not so much. of course elves have other issues that consider really important, like the size of the city.

    as for war weariness, i'd base it off of the 'home city' of the unit (in civ2 a unit built had a city it drew support from, it started out as the city in which it was produced, but it could be set to a different city). i'd have it so that it was based on the population of the city, so a large city could support more units than a small one. that way if you conquer a city and throw a bunch of cheap units in it to deal with the unrest (from a newly conquered city), then start cranking out units you will have to deal with increasing unrest (and thus will have to either increase the garrison, reassign the units to your core cities, or bring units from your other cities).

    as for rebellion, i'd just have them declare independance and kick out your units at the end of your turn (when they rebel, not if you get a single unhappy unworking citizen). so for that one turn they have to do what they can to keep you from retaking the city (like building a unit), and when you do retake it it is then 'newly' conquered and thus has some extra unrest that gradually goes away (as long as you keep them from rebelling again).

  5. #15
    Abecedarian Mage
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    196
    Quote Originally Posted by jamoecw View Post
    is it possible to weight the factors that cause unrest to shift a bit from race to race?

    so say dwarfs have big issues with taxes, but elves not so much. of course elves have other issues that consider really important, like the size of the city.
    Should be doable, but I'm not sure whether it's an improvement or a distraction.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamoecw View Post
    as for war weariness, i'd base it off of the 'home city' of the unit (in civ2 a unit built had a city it drew support from, it started out as the city in which it was produced, but it could be set to a different city).
    The next micro alert!

    I think this is going too far in the direction of a civilization simulator, while MoM should be about the war for magical supremacy between the Sorcerer Lords, with cities and units being mere tools in that fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamoecw View Post
    as for rebellion, i'd just have them declare independance and kick out your units at the end of your turn
    That just means you will immediately retake the city - so leave out the manual step and just raise unrest even higher.

    Better would be that at least a significant part of the garrison rebels as well (and the rebel chance should depend on race (relations) only if the pacification strength of the garrison depends on it as well.

    I'd start balancing with a 100% rebel chance (all of them rebel together with the city) - don't forget that a garrison also reduces unrest, so if they rebel anyway they must be really, really unhappy, and lorewise that may sway the garrison to aid their cause (gameplay reasoning says that letting a city rebel should carry really severe penalties).

  6. #16
    Jamoecw, we can certainly change what affects unrest from race to race. (We just need to make sure the payoff justifies the work, lol.)

    mmilleder, I agree that we need to be careful with “war weariness”. WoM is really a game of war. There aren't likely to be extended periods of peace.

    If a city rebels and drives your troops out there is obviously some kind of “people's militia” or something. So, when cities go independent they will immediately be given a garrison or some kind to represent that.

    I need to condense these ideas and put them in the Wiki.

    Alright, so we have taxes, high population, etc, causing unrest. How do we want to calculate the numbers? Should we look at it in terms of % of unrest? What are the immediate effects of unrest?

    Do we run with the “Rebels” method? For instance you have x% unrest. When that % is high enough one “citizen” becomes a rebel and refuses to work?

    I feel we need sample numbers in order to start fleshing out the idea so we can start building mechanics.

    What ideas have we got?
    Everybody needs friends! Aaron's Facebook Page

  7. #17
    High population causing unrest? For certain races I could see that but for others...go look up the density of Ancient Rome or modern Hong Kong. Or what about the Insectoid race? They would have a high density I would think. If Elves are traditionally lored I could buy a high population causing unrest, but won't they just have a population cap on their towns/cities?

    As for numbers I would have it percentage base (although a general word indicator could be used percentage would be easier to understand quickly I would think). Lots of things from spells, events, wizard discipline picks, etc. will effect the unrest level from positive to negative. So I would just display the current total unrest level but allow a player to hover over it to get the details.

    As for what the numbers do. I would give each population unit (POP) a division of the total. So if you have a city of ten each little guy would represent 10%. Then if the unrest hit 10% one citizen would become a rebel and refuse to work, 20% two.

    This would scale so smaller towns it would take more before they have a rebel guy while larger cities would get them quicker unless you do stuff to placate them.

    In addition if we include the gradual penalty to the mix. As the unrest level increases not only do you get some POPs not doing any work but other penalties begin to hit. Think of it as a a few trouble makers don't really affect everyone in a city but a rioting mob would.

    So let's say at 33% total unrest you would also be hit with a income reduction, a small but noticeable hit to build times for units (not buildings yet), and other such minor effects.

    At 50% the previous penalties are increased but also building build times get a little longer.

    At 66% - All the above are increased and taxes paid are near zero, food production takes a small hit (Maybe a -1 as unrest spreads to the countryside - bandits from the city, etc. if one needs a lore reason.)

    At 75% - Construction stops. Food production is reduced to at most enough to sustain the city itself, if it can. So no exports of food. (People are starting to hoard.)

    At 85% and above chance of revolt occurs. The higher the unrest the greater the chance of revolt occurs each turn. I think for fairness sake if there is a revolt and it is crushed (i.e. a rebellion takes place and your garrison fights it off) the unrest percentage should drop quite a bit as the rebels have lost the will to fight...for now.

    I can't remember if there is a Chaos discipline. But maybe as a bonus a wizard with Chaos mastery could some additional mana off a rebellious population.

    Well that's my two cents.

  8. #18
    Caster of the Inner Tower
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    France
    Posts
    735
    High population causing unrest? => That's a very common trend in 4X games, for both game play and lore reasons. The game play reason is that small cities aren't producing much anyway, so if you've high unrest in addition, the beginning of game will be very painful. The lore reason is that a small-size city is ok without much infrastructure, but a large city requires infrastructure (buildings that lower unrest) to be happy. Usually (small city, few buildings) and (large city, lots of building) have the same unrest, but if you've a large city without any temple/coliseum/... then you've very high unrest and that's realistic. Which in terms of mechanics mean "population increases unrest, (some) building lowers it".

    Else, as I said earlier, I prefer a smooth penalty to everything (if you've 10% of unrest, everything from building to food to tax to research is 10% lower) than "some citizen refuses to work", it's both simpler to handle gameplay-wise and more realistic lore-wise. If people are really unhappy you'll have a revolt, but you won't have 25% of your citizen refusing to work because they are unhappy. They'll be less efficient, more stressed and error-prone, ... but they will still work.

  9. #19
    Abecedarian Mage
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    196
    Description of MoM's unrest mechanic

    MoM does a straight "x% of population are rebels" (rounded down, I believe) and reduces the resulting number of rebels with religious buildings.
    Thus if you double your city size, you also need twice as many religious buildings to keep it content.

    Together with the fact that food production takes precedence over hammer production this means that unrest wipes out hammer production much more quickly than if x% unrest reduced hammer production by x%.

    With MoM's model of food production - local, can't be stored - reducing food production by unrest would mean to make the city starve. Thus MoM has food production take precedence even over rebellion - even the rebels want to eat.

    MoM doesn't have unrest from population, but creating rebels by percentage while pacifying them one by one has a very similar effect.

    Suggestion

    My suggestion is to follow MoM's lead quite close - or if something else is desired, to follow some other game (civ1 comes to mind).

    Reasoning

    I think that unrest and unrest management is a secondary part of the game, so I don't think it merits designing (and thus balancing) a completely new mechanic over a tried and well understood one.

    Small tweaks, and only 2-3 of them, are acceptable.

    I'd class as small
    * systematic rebellion (was a random event in MoM)
    * different unrest percentages for different races (beyond different race relations)
    * extra unrest from fear (city undefended; also killer stack near)
    * short term extra unrest in a newly conquered city

    I'm much more wary of (and do at most one of them, ready to rip it out again)
    * Luxuries
    * Distance penalty
    * War weariness (we aren't playing Civilization, we are playing War of Magic)

    I would avoid anything that requires micro-management (see "micro" in my other posts).

  10. #20
    Archmage of the Inner Ring ampoliros's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    1,662
    mmilleder - great post!

    MoM did have the notion of differing unrest from race to race, especially when conquering other races. The bottom of this wiki page shows the chart for additional conquer unrest, ranging from 10% to 40%. Government type and tax rate were MoM's other factors.

    I think each faction and not each government type should have it's own base unrest rate. And on the flipside, each faction should have different reactions to police units. I think there should be 2 police values, same faction and other faction. I think more differentiation than that gets too messy - even for factions that hate each other.

    Rebellion should be systematically random - that is it should still be random when it happens, but influenced by the number of rebel pop units.

    I'm OK with a short extra unrest in a newly conquered city, but I'm wondering if WoM's additional conquer unrest chart shouldn't be with higher percentages. There are backers who are concerned with the notion that starting race in MoM didn't matter because you could conquer whichever race you wanted their benefits from. If the conquer unrest is greater in WoM, that would be one factor in making starting faction more important.

    mmilleder's other unrest mods/tweaks (from MoM's model) don't look appealing to me.

Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
footer