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Thread: Is Farming One?

  1. #1

    Is Farming One?

    If the title confuses you read this post: The Theory of One

    Now the question was raised as to whether or not farmers “Are One”. That is to say: Should your average farmer raise One food per turn. Now, at first this seems to be a clear “No! He has to raise more!” because the answer to the question “How much food should the average citizen eat per turn?” is One. So, if he raises One and eats One cities will only ever be able to maintain themselves. Well, clearly that doesn't work. The answer here belongs to other questions, however! (Do you like it when I get my “philosopher” on?)

    Now, the first question is not a matter of “Is One?”, but of how we handle terrain bonuses. This may actually kick off another thread, but we can see what kind of consensus we have here first.

    So, I see us handling terrain bonuses in one of two ways: We can give terrain types a flat bonus for each area of production (food, production, research, gold) OR we can give each terrain tile a percentage bonus and add those together to come up with a “Bonus Percentage”. Let me break those down. (Maybe I should have just started another thread... We'll see...)

    Flat Bonus:
    With this method each terrain tile has a number of flat bonuses (based on race in some cases). Now, when you assign a worker to a task it is automatically “assigned” to the best tile for that job and you are given the bonuses from “best” to “worst”. This is a lot like the Civilization method except you can't pick where to put your citizens and they can farm the same tile they are mining. Really, all things considered I don't like it... I mention it because it's one possible method. We could even add population assigning if we wanted to, but I REALLY don't like that. I think it's great for the Civ games, but not for WoM. I want to keep city management simple. (Well, simple by comparison.)

    Percentage Bonus:
    The idea here is that around a city you've got farmland, a place to mine, some forests, etc, etc, etc. All of these offer some bonus to one or more areas of production. So, we add all the bonuses together and your average worker gets a production value of One + Bonus Percentage. This is clean and simple in my mind. It also works well with hills where there may be areas to farm and areas to mine or what have you. Either way, the pitch stands on it's own, I'm sure you get the idea.

    All this goes back to “Is One?” for the farmer because however we work these bonuses he will almost always produce more than One. He would only every produce One if you built a city in a place with absolutely no food production bonus for the race in question. In that case the city should be producing just enough to survive. You should have to invest in buildings, city spells, terraforming, etc, in order to make the city more hospitable.

    At least those are my thoughts on the subject.

    What are yours?
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  2. #2
    Caster of the Inner Tower
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    I've two questions :

    1. Do we have a "free" production for the city itself ? In Civ, the city square always produce in addition to citizens. So a city 1 city actually work two tiles. Will we have something like that, or not ?

    2. How do we handle fractions. Let's assume we have a food production bonus of +33%. What does that mean ? We could have production/farmer for the first three farmers be 2,1,1 or 1,2,1 or 1,1,2 ? If we're going to 1,1,2 then it means the city will need to have a population of 4 because it can allocate even one citizen for production, that sounds horrible. So either we need base food production for farmers to be more than one, or we need the bonus for titles to be high enough so we can reach +100% or more, or we need to be very generous with the rounding.

    More generally, the "theory of one" is quite nice, but makes rounding issues become _very_ important, so I would like to know how they'll be handled.

  3. #3
    First, I don't think there's any way a farmer can just produce One. How would you ever have workers (guys that make production)? They'd need food too. So, I say it has to be Two.

    As for percentage bonuses or flat bonuses, I'd suggest going with whatever MoM did. I think it did the Percentage Bonus method, right?
    My RPG Design and Theory Blog: http://socratesrpg.blogspot.com/

  4. #4
    Kilobug, the city won't produce anything for free. All work is done by workers assigned to whatever category.

    I think we should round fractions. With a production bonus of 33% (which would be rather low by the way) you would get 1 food with one farmer, but 3 food with 2 farmers. Keep in mind, we want to use the Theory of One wherever possible. Another way at looking at One is 100%. So, “How much food bonus would average terrain give to a city?” One or 100%.

    I would look at it this way: Say we stick with the MoM method and that a city gets bonuses from the 21 tiles around it. Your “average” terrain for High Men from a food production point of view would be hills. So, 21 hills would give the city 100% food bonus. That would make the bonus of each Hill 4.7619 (Spock goes on for a while). Well, I like round numbers, so we'll just make it 5% and fudge One a bit. So, in a city surrounded by hills High Men farmers would actually receive 105% bonus for a total food production of 2.05 per farmer. Plains are the High Men's “Sweet Spot” for food production. So, each plain would grant a 10% bonus. That means a city on the plains would produce 3.1 food per farmer. I know these are extreme situations, but I think the method will stand up.

    Troy, there should be situations where a city can only exist, not thrive IMO. I don't think High Men should be able to build a city completely surrounded by desert and get 2 food per farmer. It just feels wrong to me. Still, I'm open to debate.

    Yea, MoM used the percentage method and I am really in favor of it. I expect that's what we'll go with. (MoM did have some flat bonuses like Wild Game, but so will we.)
    Everybody needs friends! Aaron's Facebook Page

  5. #5
    I support theoM way with percentages with the odd flat bonus like Wild Game or Oasis.

    Out of curiosity what are the planned bonuses for sea tiles (coastal and deep.sea, maybe lake as well)?

  6. #6
    Caster of the Inner Tower
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    I'm fine with "base production" being 1 for food if average terrain gives you total +100% bonus, meaning "average" city will indeed produce 2 per farmer. The way Aaron explained things seem all fine for me

  7. #7
    We will have Coastal, Deep Sea, and Lake (as well as River), but I'm not sure what the bonuses are going to be yet.

    Yes, kilobug, in an "average" situation, the average farmer will produce Two, much like Troy suggested.
    Everybody needs friends! Aaron's Facebook Page

  8. #8
    Troy, there should be situations where a city can only exist, not thrive IMO. I don't think High Men should be able to build a city completely surrounded by desert and get 2 food per farmer. It just feels wrong to me. Still, I'm open to debate.
    I agree. Don't deserts and tundra provide negative bonuses (penalties) to food production?
    My RPG Design and Theory Blog: http://socratesrpg.blogspot.com/

  9. #9
    Sorcerer of the Lesser Tower Morak's Avatar
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    Now that it has been explained I agree with the Percentage Bonus model.

  10. #10
    Archmage of the Central Tower Happerry's Avatar
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    I'll vote for a percentage method. And I think what bonuses terrain give can also be modified by race sometimes? Even if the Highmen aren't going to get much if any food from the desert, Nomads should be able to...

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