The Orcs [Discussion: Units]

[Happerry]

jamoecw, I have to vote against Pillage and Shieldwall as you've written them. Pillage seems a micromanagment hell for limited gain, and Shieldwall is grossly overpowered as long as it gives your level in AC. That's a giant bonus once things get up even a few levels, and it's pretty much free because most infantry will probably already be moving at medium load speed, on the grounds that most infantry have better then light armor.

I do think a javelin using unit sounds good for the ranged unit though.. I'd prefer to call him the Impaler however. Sounds cooler then the Skirmisher in my opinion.

What about a Wulfmaster unit that fights with a spear and leashed timberwolf as the early midtier unit? They'd get 2 attacks per turn, but would have double the food upkeep. I would think this is a fearsome foe.

Could you explain how this works? Most units already will have more then one figure in them, each with their own attack, and you seem to be claiming that a unit with two figures getting two attacks is special, which it isn't, so I feel like I'm missing your point..

(As well as the fact that most infantry would have four figures in their unit, so something with two figures doesn't sound that powerful anyway..)

[kilobug]

+1 to the general idea of some "wolf-based" units (wolf riders, wolf masters), I'll get more into details later on.

[Lintking]

I kind of liked zdsdead's names, except that I'm also not sure we want to tie the orcs *so* strongly to a real-world culture. "Viking-basis" is one thing; "Sons of Norway" is something else altogether.

With that said, though, +1 to Vísendakona. That's a neat name, and proposes the idea of a gender-divide in Orc culture, with warriors being men, but magic being a woman's thing. Which could help guide our unit graphics.

Have to agree with Happery about the Pillage ability as written... it's neat, but nothing I'd want to spend time on in a game. Pillage as an ability for orcs, though, I do thing is neat; Maybe it should just increase the `gold captured' bonus after sacking a city? (Which would be kind of interesting, giving a secondary reason to field larger stacks - eg, Orcish Hoards.)


I'm not sure about re-naming everything, as much fun as it is, so I would leave Settlers named Settlers unless there's a very good reason to change it. For our Viking theme, though, I think Orcish Settlers should have simple boats - ie, Waterwalking, allowing them to quickly colonize across the seas.

I will propose Drakkar for the Orc's special ship (or at least, a special ship, I don't know if we want more than one.) The name is based on "Drekar", a name for a Viking Longship, but, as noted, I don't think we should copy the culture too exactly, and that's a fair transliteration anyway. Drakkar should be able to carry one or two more units than everyone else's ships can, have a Move of 3, and most of all, should be able to travel along rivers. (One of the defining characteristics of the Viking longboats was their light weight and shallow draft - this would let Orcs use their ships for limited faster movement inland, but.. only over tiles with rivers.) They should require the Shipwright's Guild, and possibly Lighthouse, depending on how that plays out.

And a +1 to keeping the tradition of Wolves as an Orc's best friend! I like JohnReeve's Wulfmaster - it's a logical precursor before riding wolves, and that feels good. Happery, I believe when he says they would have two attacks per round, he doesn't just mean multiple figures - he means each Unit of Wulfmasters would roll its attack value, triggering defense rolls.. and then do it again. Which could have an interesting impact if there are, say, spells that defend against the first attack of the round, or something. If by some chance that's not what JohnReeve meant, then it is hereby what I mean anyway. <gryn>

I'd call the ability Doublestrike, in case we need it again; one attack (in this case, the wolves themselves lunging forward) that has a "First Strike" effect - so damage applies *before* any counter-attack is made - and then an immediate follow-up attack that works as a regular attack. Note that Units with the ability to counter First-Strike would, of course, still do that, but would still be attacked twice in the round - they'd just respond to both as normal attacks. (Ie., coding-wise, the first attack would just use First Strike's coding entirely, including the part about checking to see if the opposing Unit can counter it.)

(Hmm...I think this effect is almost identical to the Barbarian's "Throwing" attack in MoM, actually, but Doublestrike is a bit more versatile as a concept. I don't remember if Throwing worked as a First Strike or not.)

[Happerry]

With that said, though, +1 to Vísendakona. That's a neat name, and proposes the idea of a gender-divide in Orc culture, with warriors being men, but magic being a woman's thing. Which could help guide our unit graphics.

I'm against all magic being a women only thing. I don't mind a female spellcaster, but saying all magic users must be female.. well, these aren't amazon orcs.

And a +1 to keeping the tradition of Wolves as an Orc's best friend! I like JohnReeve's Wulfmaster - it's a logical precursor before riding wolves, and that feels good. Happery, I believe when he says they would have two attacks per round, he doesn't just mean multiple figures - he means each Unit of Wulfmasters would roll its attack value, triggering defense rolls.. and then do it again. Which could have an interesting impact if there are, say, spells that defend against the first attack of the round, or something. If by some chance that's not what JohnReeve meant, then it is hereby what I mean anyway. <gryn>

I'd call the ability Doublestrike, in case we need it again; one attack (in this case, the wolves themselves lunging forward) that has a "First Strike" effect - so damage applies *before* any counter-attack is made - and then an immediate follow-up attack that works as a regular attack. Note that Units with the ability to counter First-Strike would, of course, still do that, but would still be attacked twice in the round - they'd just respond to both as normal attacks. (Ie., coding-wise, the first attack would just use First Strike's coding entirely, including the part about checking to see if the opposing Unit can counter it.)

Err... I take it you don't play DnD then? Because units already attack more then once. As they level up, they get more attacks per round, depending on their class. (IE, warriors get more of them, and get them sooner, then wizards, but everyone ends up with around four or five attacks by level 20, depending on class, feats, and equipment.)

..And by the description of that unit, it's still only got two figures in it, which is two less then more other infantry will have.

I also have an instinctive twitch when I contemplate putting more then one kind of figure into a unit, too..

I'd far prefer something like the Wolfhounds I suggested early, where it's just a trained hunting pack, or the 'handler' doesn't actually do any combat and is just their graphically, instead of mixing figures like that.

[mmilleder]

I'd far prefer something like the Wolfhounds I suggested early, where it's just a trained hunting pack, or the 'handler' doesn't actually do any combat and is just their graphically, instead of mixing figures like that.

While the Wulfmaster sounds nice, it won't look good - for balance with normal infantry we'd want four of them in a unit, and 4 Orcs + 4 wolves will be too much for one cell.

So I'd also go with the Wolfhounds.

Having the handler there is again a nice idea, but that would need mechanics of whether an attack hits him or a wolf, especially some ranged attack, so I'm slightly against it.

Mixed units like the Wulfmaster, rules about the mount surviving the death of the rider, and even some leader with his followers, are IMO DLC material.

[Happerry]

By 'is just there graphically' I meant that he doesn't have any stats at all. He's just added to the units looks, and can't attack or be attacked, and vanishes in a poof of magic smoke when the last Wolfhound dies..

But I'd prefer no handler, speaking for myself.

[Endless Rain]

Me and zdsdead came up with unit lists in this thread: http://forum.wastelands-interactive....ing-Style-orcs! I thought it would be a good idea to post the link here.

EDIT: I'm pretty busy today and tomorrow, but I'll try to discuss the Orc units more on Thursday.

---------- Post added at 11:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:33 AM ----------

With that said, though, +1 to Vísendakona. That's a neat name, and proposes the idea of a gender-divide in Orc culture, with warriors being men, but magic being a woman's thing. Which could help guide our unit graphics.

I'm strongly against having a gender divide like that in the Orcs culture. There should be both men and women as warriors, and both men and women as spellcasters. (Assuming the Orcs get more than one spellcasting unit.)

[Shadow Knight]

Okay I found some references (at least in gaming literature) to Valdaermen so I'll recap it here. I think it can be bent enough away from a straight Norse color to a more Orcish Viking theme

Seen as seers, runecasters, and shamanic weather mages (i.e. using sacrifices and/or spirits to augment their weather spells).

In a warrior culture magic is often seen as weak, at times effeminate (not that there are not powerful warrior females but the feminine is seen as weaker nonetheless), but the Orcish chieftains have come to rely on their Valdaermen for wisdom and their power. No matter how much it might gall them to do so.

Armed with only a spear and their magic the Valdaermen can mean the difference between victory or defeat for the Horde.

So what I propose is this: A mid to high tier magic unit with the following abilities.

Spear (only used in melee defense), offense would be the standard magic bolt.

Seer ability (grants basically extended sight for the stack they are attached to).

Once a battle they can do one of two things. Use their runes to cast a curse on an enemy unit (basically reduces AC or resistance whichever works best). Or sacrifice one of their allied units (has to either be a orc unit or a summoned spirit to work) to power a relatively powerful lightning strike.

It would require the runeseer's guild and one of the religious buildings that would seem most appropriate.

[Happerry]

Even though I'm still going to vote for my Runeseer instead of this form of the Valdaermen (Who I was under the impression was going to be an arcane caster..)

I'd like to point out that the Orcale/Runecaster's Guild is already a religious building. Or at least in the religious tree.

[Troy_Costisick]

While the Wulfmaster sounds nice, it won't look good - for balance with normal infantry we'd want four of them in a unit, and 4 Orcs + 4 wolves will be too much for one cell.

So I'd also go with the Wolfhounds.

Having the handler there is again a nice idea, but that would need mechanics of whether an attack hits him or a wolf, especially some ranged attack, so I'm slightly against it.

Mixed units like the Wulfmaster, rules about the mount surviving the death of the rider, and even some leader with his followers, are IMO DLC material.

I don't anticipate this being a problem to code. We can just treat the wolf and master as one being.