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Thread: Spell Research Mechanics

  1. #11
    Not sure what you guys mean with semi-blind, but I oppose anything that makes Research less about hard choices with opportunity costs, and more about pure luck.

    For replayability; there are better ways to improve replayability. Decreasing strategic meaningfull gameplay is not one of them.

    Edit: Now I undersood it better. I like the OP's post now after all. It's OK if it works like that. I actually like it.
    Last edited by Andy_Dandy; 03-10-2014 at 11:21 AM.

  2. #12
    Mage of the Lesser Tower
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    Quote Originally Posted by ampoliros
    Truth be told I do prefer only having a choice of 8 spells at any one time, but I wouldn't cry if WI chose to give us all our spells in the research list from the beginning.
    I agree with that -- I'm not set on 8 specifically, except for its echoes to Discworld, but having the limited spells available, weighted towards the lower-tier effects, really helped that feeling that you were.. studying. Learning more advanced magic and growing in power. Not knowing everything that was coming was a big piece of that feeling, too -- IC, it was hoping for legendary effects from ancient tales, say, rather than just tapping your fingers waiting to unlock Crusade again. And the randomized selections definitely got me to play with spells I wouldn't have picked, or at least, wouldn't have picked over other choices. Plus, it was very exciting when a strong spell showed up earlier than I expected. It was also a very good reason to put a point into another book, rather than load up on Retorts and select just the specific spells I wanted. So, replicating as much of that as possible, I would be in favor of.

    I think the gap between 9 Circles, and 9 Circles + Circle Mastery, should be pretty significant. As, I think it was Beregar, pointed out, with 12 Spell Picks + 6 possible Negatives, it's not too hard to get up to 18 picks. Cranking it to Eleven in MoM was *it*; if you did that, that was all you were doing. In WoW, not only can you have two full Circles maxed out at 9 -- you can potentially have 9+CM, and still have some points for Disciplines or another Circle. Life 9, Circle Mastery, and Destruction 6, say. Totally doable. Sure, you'll be an Ascetic Mortal Heretic, but you can do it, and once we develop some styles around the Negatives...

    My point being -- 9 points in a Circle should be good, of course, but it's not... the Big Deal that even 10 points in a single school was in MoM. If Circle Mastery is going to have that "Eleven Book" feel (despite not actually being all you can possibly do), then it needs to be bridging more than a 10% gap.

    I've been poking at some of the balance between stacking Circles, or picking a bunch of low Circles, or choosing two Elements or Effects versus one Element and one Effect, or.. whatever, and we actually seem to have a kind of natural balance between quality and quantity that I like a lot, although there are some noticeable hiccups. But I do have to assume that whatever Circles you pick, without Circle Mastery, you're only getting a percentage of those spells.

    I very much liked how in MoM, even the Common spells had to build up.. so if you had one book, you didn't get all the Common Spells for it. In that same sense, I would assume that one point in Life doesn't give you all 12 Tier 1 Life Spells. Life 1/Biomancy 1 may open up the potential for.. what, 22 spells? But just two points in Magic Circles shouldn't give you that many.

    To a large extent, it seems like we can just pick-a-percentage - say, 10% of your potential for each point in a Circle*, or whatever. But when we have the intersections, it gets trickier... if you do Life 2/Biomancy 2, then sure; 20% of Life Tiers 1&2, 20% of Biomancy Tiers 1&2... but you also have Life/Biomancy Tiers 3 and 4, and there's only one spell in each of those. That means high Tier spells can absolutely be chosen from the start. Want to make sure you have Resurrection? Take Life and Summoning, make sure they add up to 6+ but neither is higher than 5, and it has to be there. Reading this thread and the number of us who have talked about liking the randomization and all... I'm not sure that's the result we want.

    Even less sure it is fixable at this stage, mind you, but it might bear talking about.


    (*--I know, that would have 9 Circles vs 9 Circles+Circle Mastery only bridging a 10% gap. It's a nicely sensible number that's easy to work with, though. I don't know.)

  3. #13
    Archmage of the Outer Ring jamoecw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mardagg View Post
    +1 to semiblind research.

    I cant give numbers for what % of spells 9 circles should grant before knowing what exactly the expensive mastery disicpline grants in addition to getting all spells...
    Because if it adds a lot more I dont think there is a big need to tone down taking 9 circles,and it should probably give around 90% of spells imo,maybe someway along : 12+11+5+5+5+5+4+4+1 ( i think all first and maybe 2nd tier spells should be common knowledge for a 9 circle sorcerer,imo it can be important to have planning securiiy in that area).
    you could do:
    tier picked = T (mastery would be a value of 12)
    spell tier =S
    total spells in tier = #

    rounded up ((T-S+1)*.2*#)= spells you can have for that tier

    ex.
    (9-2+1)*.2*12=12

    this would result in:
    tier 12 (spell mastery) - 12,12,6,6,6,6,6,6,2
    tier 9 - 12,12,6,6,6,5,4,3,1
    tier 8 - 12,12,6,6,5,4,3,2,0
    tier 7 - 12,12,6,5,4,3,2,0,0
    tier 6 - 12,12,5,4,3,2,0,0,0
    tier 5 - 12,10,4,3,2,0,0,0,0
    tier 4 - 10,8,3,2,0,0,0,0,0
    tier 3 - 8,5,2,0,0,0,0,0,0
    tier 2 - 5,3,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
    tier 1 - 3,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0

    you have roughly 10% per tier picked of the spells available, weighted so that you get more of the lower tier spells than the higher tier ones available to you (like MoM).


    __________________________________


    as for how random the spells you get should be i'd say allow 8 that are of the tier you can research be available randomly. this means with 1 pick there would be 2 spells that the RNG would deny you (based on the space determined from the above method).

    i'd also weight the chance a spell pops into your research list based on what tier it is (low tier are more likely).

    finally i'd have it ensure that you have at least one of each tier and type before allowing duplicate tiers and types.

    this way it stays somewhat random, but you won't get all of your highest tier spells at once (which would most likely determine the game at that point).

  4. #14
    Archmage of the Inner Ring ampoliros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamoecw View Post
    this would result in:
    tier 12 (spell mastery) - 12,12,6,6,6,6,6,6,2
    tier 9 - 12,12,6,6,6,5,4,3,1
    tier 8 - 12,12,6,6,5,4,3,2,0
    tier 7 - 12,12,6,5,4,3,2,0,0
    tier 6 - 12,12,5,4,3,2,0,0,0
    tier 5 - 12,10,4,3,2,0,0,0,0
    tier 4 - 10,8,3,2,0,0,0,0,0
    tier 3 - 8,5,2,0,0,0,0,0,0
    tier 2 - 5,3,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
    tier 1 - 3,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
    I like that breakdown - it is more MoMish than Mardagg's first stab.

  5. #15
    Sorcerer of the Lesser Tower Wraithstalker's Avatar
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    I'd prefer if Master's of a circle could eventually cast all the spells in the circle, you know, since they are Masters.

  6. #16
    they do,12 12 6 6 6 6 6 6 2 = 62 spells= all spells of a circle
    I think its rather out of question atm that the master discipline Sorcerers will get all spells.
    The tough thing now will be,to answer the question:
    How many spells should Circle 1-9 Sorcerers get?

    I do think that with Jamoecw`s formular, there isnt enough difference between taking mid and high circle numbers .
    I would be totally fine with a 9 Circle sorcerer getting all Tier 1 and Tier 2 spells...since this would make it an interesting option,giving planning security and would not always force to instatake the circle mastery....BUT
    to make this work a 8 circle master should not get all Tier 1 and Tier 2 spells anymore...likewise a 7 circle master even less,so on.
    By just giving out less spells for the high spell circle Tiers, you would end up with no one taking 7 or more circles in a single magic sphere for short to medium length games,since the high spell tiers arent a priority on faster paced games.

    So ,the difference in available spells needs to be visible for all spell tiers.

    I have altered Jamoecw`s list to what i think would be a better balanced solution:

    tier 12 (spell mastery) - 12,12,6,6,6,6,6,6,2
    tier 9 - 12,12,6,6,6,5,4,3,1

    tier 8 - 12,11,5,5,5,4,3,2,0 (before: 12,12,6,6,5,4,3,2,0)
    tier 7 - 11,10,5,5,4,3,2,0,0 (before: 12,12,6,5,4,3,2,0,0)
    tier 6 - 11,9,4,4,3,2,0,0,0 (before: 12,12,5,4,3,2,0,0,0)
    tier 5 - 10,9,4,3,2,0,0,0,0 (before: 12,10,4,3,2,0,0,0,0)
    tier 4 - 9,8,3,2,0,0,0,0,0 (before: 10,8,3,2,0,0,0,0,0)
    tier 3 - 8,6,2,0,0,0,0,0,0 (before: 8,5,2,0,0,0,0,0,0)
    tier 2 - 6,3,0,0,0,0,0,0,0 (before: 5,3,0,0,0,0,0,0,0)
    tier 1 - 5,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0 (before: 3,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0)

    Essentially ive made Tier 5-8 slightly weaker,tier 4 almost unchanged and Tier 1-3 slightly better.
    Imo with a Tier 1 only giving 3 /12 out of the available spells,it would almost never make sense to spend a point there that not goes into another discipline.
    With 5/12 spells available this might be more appealing.
    Last edited by Mardagg; 03-12-2014 at 01:21 AM.

  7. #17
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    Circle Mastery does that. I think that's totally settled - 9 Tiers in a Circle + Circle Mastery, and you can learn all the spells. Of that Circle.

    I don't see a problem with the highest levels all getting all of the lowest level spells - once you're playing in that range, the high-Tier spells do matter, especially as it improves your chances of getting the ones you want most.

    Jamoecw - I really like that model, except that I'm not sure how it applies to the Stacking thing. That gives me a great idea what spells a Lord with Life 5 would have, or even Life 5 and Earth 2 (12/10/4/3/2 Life, and 5/3 Earth!) But if they have Life 5, Biomancy 2... what is that? 12/10/4/3/2 Life, and 5/3 Biomancy, maybe, except that you also have Life/Biomancy 7 -- and again, I run into the problem that if we just make it 5/3 Biomancy, 12/10/4/3/2 Life, +0/0/0/0/0/1/1 Life/Biomancy, then you've directly selected the Tier 6 and Tier 7 Life/Biomancy spells, since there's only one to have. Plus, how do we count the 5 Tier 1 Biomancy Spells when you already have all 12 Tier 1 Life Spells - including the two Life/Biomancy ones? What if you have Life 5, Biomancy 5? Between them, you're getting more Tier 1 Spells than both of your fields combine to offer.

    Does it work if that becomes Tier 7 (tier 7 - 12,12,6,5,4,3,2,0,0) - Life/Biomancy? So that you actually get 3 Tier 6 spells and 2 Tier 7 spells, with all seven Tiers chosen from Life and from Biomancy but not just from Life/Biomancy?

    That almost makes sense to me, but it falls apart immediately if you have Life 5, Biomancy 2, Protection 2.

    Maybe the model should be based purely on the number of Circles you have in Magic, period? And if that would give you access to Tiers of Spells that your combined Circles won't allow, then that backwashes down to give you more lower-Tier spells? (So for example, the Markas Build I just proposed with 2 Tiers in each Effect Circle has 12 Circles of Magic total, offering lots of spells.. but because he never adds up to more than Tier 2, all of those higher-Tier spells that would be available to someone with a 6/6 build cascade down and mean that he really does get virtually all of those Tier 1 and 2 spells. If, on the other hand, someone just did two points in Air and put everything else in Disciplines, they'd only have a handful of the low-level Air effects, because they're just... not that magical.) But we would need something that carried all the way up to 18 possible points in Circles, without leaving the "mere" 9-point level too crippled for someone who's just filling out one full magic type, and yet still makes it significant that Circle Mastery circumvents it all by allowing full mastery of a single Circle with only 12 points - something that a 9/3 build can't offer, because they're getting the added benefits of three levels in another Circle of magic.

    I'm not sure this is the right track. Not at all. But we need a method that doesn't just look at a single Circle of magic at a time.

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Lintking View Post
    But we would need something that carried all the way up to 18 possible points in Circles, without leaving the "mere" 9-point level too crippled for someone who's just filling out one full magic type, and yet still makes it significant that Circle Mastery circumvents it all by allowing full mastery of a single Circle with only 12 points - something that a 9/3 build can't offer, because they're getting the added benefits of three levels in another Circle of magic.

    I'm not sure this is the right track. Not at all. But we need a method that doesn't just look at a single Circle of magic at a time.
    My preferred approach to this would be to not allow any Sorcerer to take more than 12 Circles of magic.
    So thats 9 of a sinlge circle + mastery(counts 3)= 12 or any other combination without circle mastery not exceeding 12.

    That would mean that all circle masters are only proficient in one Magic sphere,which makes sense to me actually.
    Of course there could be still means to get more magic circles in game as loot or quest reward for example.
    Last edited by Mardagg; 03-12-2014 at 01:58 AM.

  9. #19
    Archmage of the Inner Ring ampoliros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mardagg View Post
    tier 12 (spell mastery) - 12,12,6,6,6,6,6,6,2
    tier 9 - 12,12,6,6,6,5,4,3,1

    tier 8 - 12,11,5,5,5,4,3,2,0 (before: 12,12,6,6,5,4,3,2,0)
    tier 7 - 11,10,5,5,4,3,2,0,0 (before: 12,12,6,5,4,3,2,0,0)
    tier 6 - 11,9,4,4,3,2,0,0,0 (before: 12,12,5,4,3,2,0,0,0)
    tier 5 - 10,9,4,3,2,0,0,0,0 (before: 12,10,4,3,2,0,0,0,0)
    tier 4 - 9,8,3,2,0,0,0,0,0 (before: 10,8,3,2,0,0,0,0,0)
    tier 3 - 8,6,2,0,0,0,0,0,0 (before: 8,5,2,0,0,0,0,0,0)
    tier 2 - 6,3,0,0,0,0,0,0,0 (before: 5,3,0,0,0,0,0,0,0)
    tier 1 - 5,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0 (before: 3,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0)
    Looking at MoM's chart again, MoM gave (essentially) 4 spells per book. Since WoM skews the number of spells towards the low Tiers we can't exactly divide the 62 by 10, but we can approximate it.

    12pts : 9 + Mastery : 12,12,6,6,6,6,6,6,2
    9pts : 9 Tiers in circle :
    12 points 9 Tiers + Mastery 12,12,6,6,6,6,6,6,2 : (62)
    9 points 9 Tiers 12,12,6,6,6,5,4,4,1 : (56)
    8 points 8 Tiers 12,12,6,6,5,4,3,2,0 : (50)
    7 points 7 Tiers 12,12,6,5,4,3,2,0,0 : (44)
    6 points 6 Tiers 12,11,6,4,3,2,0,0,0 : (38)
    5 points 5 Tiers 12,10,5,3,2,0,0,0,0 : (32)
    4 points 4 Tiers 11,9,4,2,0,0,0,0,0 : (26)
    3 points 3 Tiers 10,8,2,0,0,0,0,0,0 : (20)
    2 points 2 Tiers 8,6,0,0,0,0,0,0,0 : (14)
    1 point 1 Tier 7,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0 : (7)

    Subtract 1 1st Tier and 1 2nd Tier spell from each of those lists if you don't have Mastery.
    I've rethought Mastery and assert that each Tier in a Circle should give you 6 spells. So Mastery gives you the final 2 spells.

    ---------- Post added at 09:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:41 PM ----------

    To begin addressing the point that's been brought up about how to handle Element/Effect Circle stacking...

    I think the only fair way to approach it is that the total number of spells you are allowed to research is determined by the number of points you put towards magic. (Arcane spells obviously excluded from this limit.)

    For the sake of this argument I assert that Mastery only counts as 1 point - since the other 2 points will give other benefits.

    So, each point in a Tier of magic will give you 6 spells total that you can research. No you can go nuts, take 6 points of negative Disciplines and take 18 points of Magic. Then you'll have 108 spells you can research.

    Now we just need to decide the algorithm for spreading the spells out amongst the different Circle combinations.
    Last edited by ampoliros; 03-12-2014 at 03:01 AM. Reason: rethink of Mastery

  10. #20
    Archmage of the Outer Ring jamoecw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lintking View Post
    I'm not sure this is the right track. Not at all. But we need a method that doesn't just look at a single Circle of magic at a time.
    the formula can be applied to each cross circle section on its own:
    example - 1/1
    1 1 1 1 1 1
    1 0 0 0 0 0
    0 0 0 0 0 0
    0 0 0 0 0 0
    0 0 0 0 0 0
    0 0 0 0 0 0
    0 0 0 0 0 0
    0 0 0 0 0 0

    1 1 1 1 1 1
    1 0 0 0 0 0
    0 0 0 0 0 0
    0 0 0 0 0 0
    0 0 0 0 0 0
    0 0 0 0 0 0
    0 0 0 0 0 0
    0 0 0 0 0 0


    6/2
    2 2 2 2 2 2
    2 2 2 2 2 2
    1 1 1 1 1 1
    1 1 1 1 1 1
    1 1 1 1 1 1
    1 1 1 1 1 1
    1 0 0 0 0 0
    1 0 0 0 0 0

    2 1 1 1 1 1
    2 1 1 1 1 1
    1 0 0 0 0 0
    1 0 0 0 0 0
    1 0 0 0 0 0
    1 0 0 0 0 0
    1 0 0 0 0 0
    1 0 0 0 0 0


    Quote Originally Posted by ampoliros View Post
    Looking at MoM's chart again, MoM gave (essentially) 4 spells per book. Since WoM skews the number of spells towards the low Tiers we can't exactly divide the 62 by 10, but we can approximate it.

    12pts : 9 + Mastery : 12,12,6,6,6,6,6,6,2
    9pts : 9 Tiers in circle :
    12 points 9 Tiers + Mastery 12,12,6,6,6,6,6,6,2 : (62)
    9 points 9 Tiers 12,12,6,6,6,5,4,4,1 : (56)
    8 points 8 Tiers 12,12,6,6,5,4,3,2,0 : (50)
    7 points 7 Tiers 12,12,6,5,4,3,2,0,0 : (44)
    6 points 6 Tiers 12,11,6,4,3,2,0,0,0 : (38)
    5 points 5 Tiers 12,10,5,3,2,0,0,0,0 : (32)
    4 points 4 Tiers 11,9,4,2,0,0,0,0,0 : (26)
    3 points 3 Tiers 10,8,2,0,0,0,0,0,0 : (20)
    2 points 2 Tiers 8,6,0,0,0,0,0,0,0 : (14)
    1 point 1 Tier 7,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0 : (7)

    Subtract 1 1st Tier and 1 2nd Tier spell from each of those lists if you don't have Mastery.
    I've rethought Mastery and assert that each Tier in a Circle should give you 6 spells. So Mastery gives you the final 2 spells.

    ---------- Post added at 09:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:41 PM ----------

    To begin addressing the point that's been brought up about how to handle Element/Effect Circle stacking...

    I think the only fair way to approach it is that the total number of spells you are allowed to research is determined by the number of points you put towards magic. (Arcane spells obviously excluded from this limit.)

    For the sake of this argument I assert that Mastery only counts as 1 point - since the other 2 points will give other benefits.

    So, each point in a Tier of magic will give you 6 spells total that you can research. No you can go nuts, take 6 points of negative Disciplines and take 18 points of Magic. Then you'll have 108 spells you can research.

    Now we just need to decide the algorithm for spreading the spells out amongst the different Circle combinations.
    the 3 points for mastery in my formula is just due to that being what is needed for it to work out for getting all of the spells, the fact that it is planned to be worth 3 character creation points is just a coincidence (a nice coincidence, but a coincidence nonetheless).

    the scaling of your chart is nicer than mine in my opinion, do you have a formula that you use for tier placement of the spell slots? (if so it might be able to be applied to cross circle sections like my formula and give the answer for cross circle progressions).

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