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Thread: Spell Research Mechanics

  1. #21
    Mage of the Lesser Tower
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    I'm sorry, Jamoecw - I'm not quite following. How does that work if someone has: Life 4, Biomancy 3, Protection 3? How many spells does your formula give them, where?

    What if they have Life 6, Earth 3, Protection 3?

    Mardagg - a flat 12-point cap makes a lot of sense, and makes it so that the Negative Disciplines really exist only to open up more Positive Disciplines. I wouldn't be against that, but we already have some Sample Lords being planned that would break that rule, and.. they are interesting. I'm not sure I like the idea of saying you can't take on -6 in Disciplines to get 18 Spell Circles.

    I would propose that the Tier 9 Spells not be counted in this. You get one for putting 9 Tiers in a Circle, and one for Circle Mastery; but you can't `add up' to them. They're special and not part of the natural progression.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by ampoliros View Post
    Subtract 1 1st Tier and 1 2nd Tier spell from each of those lists if you don't have Mastery.
    I've rethought Mastery and assert that each Tier in a Circle should give you 6 spells. So Mastery gives you the final 2 spells.

    Hm, I cant follow you here.
    Circle Mastery is only available to a Sorcerer that has taken 9 circles in a single magic sphere.
    This disicpline cant be taken by someone with less circles.

    Quote Originally Posted by ampoliros View Post
    Looking at MoM's chart again, MoM gave (essentially) 4 spells per book. Since WoM skews the number of spells towards the low Tiers we can't exactly divide the 62 by 10, but we can approximate it.

    12pts : 9 + Mastery : 12,12,6,6,6,6,6,6,2
    9pts : 9 Tiers in circle :
    12 points 9 Tiers + Mastery 12,12,6,6,6,6,6,6,2 : (62)
    9 points 9 Tiers 12,12,6,6,6,5,4,4,1 : (56)
    8 points 8 Tiers 12,12,6,6,5,4,3,2,0 : (50)
    7 points 7 Tiers 12,12,6,5,4,3,2,0,0 : (44)
    6 points 6 Tiers 12,11,6,4,3,2,0,0,0 : (38)
    5 points 5 Tiers 12,10,5,3,2,0,0,0,0 : (32)
    4 points 4 Tiers 11,9,4,2,0,0,0,0,0 : (26)
    3 points 3 Tiers 10,8,2,0,0,0,0,0,0 : (20)
    2 points 2 Tiers 8,6,0,0,0,0,0,0,0 : (14)
    1 point 1 Tier 7,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0 : (7)

    I like your list, its indeed much more balanced than the original list from Jamoecw.
    I still think though, that 5 points and upwards get too many Tier 1, 2 and Tier 3 spells.
    Again, in faster paced games, where you cant plan to get to Tier 7,8 or 9 spells before the game is finished, it would make almost no sense with this approach to invest 9 points into a single magic sphere instead of just 6 or 7. Thats why there needs to be a slightly more significant difference for the distribution of the low level spells.

    Also, I dont agree at all with the general saying in this thread: " High Tier spells are what matters" .
    Its the low and mid tier spells that by far matter the most.
    Most games dont ever reach the high tier spell level OR are already decided until then.
    Most of the time when you are able to cast the game winner spell, you are already winning anyways.
    Low level and mid level spells are cast a thousand times more than high level ones.
    Thats why, balance wise,they are more important than high level ones!
    Last edited by Mardagg; 03-12-2014 at 05:45 PM.

  3. #23
    Archmage of the Inner Ring ampoliros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ampoliros View Post
    Subtract 1 1st Tier and 1 2nd Tier spell from each of those lists if you don't have Mastery.
    I've rethought Mastery and assert that each Tier in a Circle should give you 6 spells. So Mastery gives you the final 2 spells.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mardagg View Post
    Hm, I cant follow you here.
    Circle Mastery is only available to a Sorcerer that has taken 9 circles in a single magic sphere.
    This disicpline cant be taken by someone with less circles.
    What I meant my this is...
    After having created my chart I was thinking about the cross-Circle selection. I dawned on me that each Tier of any spell Circle taken should give the player 6 spells. Since a Full Circle is 62 spells, that leaves 2 spells left over if we count Mastery as 10 Tiers. I was just saying that Mastery would give you those last 2 spells - and to take them out of the lists in my chart by subtracting one from Tier 1 and Tier 2.

  4. #24
    Archmage of the Inner Ring ampoliros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamoecw View Post
    the scaling of your chart is nicer than mine in my opinion, do you have a formula that you use for tier placement of the spell slots? (if so it might be able to be applied to cross circle sections like my formula and give the answer for cross circle progressions).
    Sorry, no. I just increased the spells so as to come out with the proper number of total spells.

    ---------- Post added at 11:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:00 PM ----------

    I've started working on a spreadsheet to work on spell distribution when taking more than one Circle.
    If all your Circles are either Element or Effect, then applying the one-circle table to all Circles works fine.
    It's late, I'll work on the cross-element-effect table tomorrow.

  5. #25
    Archmage of the Outer Ring jamoecw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lintking View Post
    I'm sorry, Jamoecw - I'm not quite following. How does that work if someone has: Life 4, Biomancy 3, Protection 3? How many spells does your formula give them, where?

    What if they have Life 6, Earth 3, Protection 3?

    Mardagg - a flat 12-point cap makes a lot of sense, and makes it so that the Negative Disciplines really exist only to open up more Positive Disciplines. I wouldn't be against that, but we already have some Sample Lords being planned that would break that rule, and.. they are interesting. I'm not sure I like the idea of saying you can't take on -6 in Disciplines to get 18 Spell Circles.

    I would propose that the Tier 9 Spells not be counted in this. You get one for putting 9 Tiers in a Circle, and one for Circle Mastery; but you can't `add up' to them. They're special and not part of the natural progression.
    Life 4, Biomancy 3, Protection 3:
    Life:
    Biomancy Protection other effects Total
    2 2 2 2 2 2 12
    2 2 2 2 2 2 12
    1 1 1 1 1 1 6
    1 1 1 1 1 1 6
    1 1 0 0 0 0 2
    1 1 0 0 0 0 2
    1 1 0 0 0 0 2
    0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    0 0 0 0 0 0 0

    biomancy/protection:
    Life other elements
    2 2 2 2 2 2 12
    2 1 1 1 1 1 8
    1 1 1 1 1 1 6
    1 0 0 0 0 0 2
    1 0 0 0 0 0 2
    1 0 0 0 0 0 2
    1 0 0 0 0 0 1
    0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    Life 6, Earth 3, Protection 3:
    Life:
    protection other effects
    2 2 2 2 2 2 12
    2 2 2 2 2 2 12
    1 1 1 1 1 1 6
    1 1 1 1 1 1 6
    1 1 1 1 1 1 6
    1 1 1 1 1 1 6
    1 0 0 0 0 0 1
    1 0 0 0 0 0 1
    0.3333333333 0 0 0 0 0 0

    earth:
    protection other effects
    2 2 2 2 2 2 12
    2 1 1 1 1 1 7
    1 1 1 1 1 1 6
    1 0 0 0 0 0 1
    1 0 0 0 0 0 1
    1 0 0 0 0 0 1
    0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    0 0 0 0 0 0 0

    protection:
    Life earth other effects
    2 2 2 2 2 2 12
    2 1 1 1 1 1 8
    1 1 1 1 1 1 6
    1 1 0 0 0 0 2
    1 1 0 0 0 0 2
    1 1 0 0 0 0 2
    1 0 0 0 0 0 1
    1 0 0 0 0 0 1
    0.3333333333 0 0 0 0 0 0


    i am going to play around with the formula to try and get it down to 6 per pick weighted towards the lower tiers like ampoliros's, but if you get the tiers figured via a formula then you can have it scale without having to chart every possible combination. it is also a little wonky for the 9 tier spells (due to them being available based on different requirements).

  6. #26
    Archmage of the Inner Ring ampoliros's Avatar
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    Yes, formulas make things easy when they're complicated, but due to the nature of how the Devs chose to distribute the spells, it really isn't that complicated.

    Since the Element/Effect stacking is a core feature of Aaron's spell system it's not going away.
    Also, other than Tier 2, there is only 1 cross-circle spell per Tier. So, yes, as was mentioned earlier in this thread, picking 2 Fire and 1 Destruction means that you are guaranteed to get Fireball - the one and only Tier 3 Fire/Destruction spell. That's just the way this spell system works.

    What I worked on last night proved that the chart I came up with for single-circle spell distribution will work across the board for as many Element -OR- Effect Circles you want to choose.

    The cross-circle stacking distribution is easy since there is only 1 cross-circle spell per Tier (except Tier 2). For each stacked spell you open up, we just need to take away one spell you would normally get from the single-circle chart. ***

    *** This fact means that Lords opening up stacked spells end up with a net higher total amount of higher Tier spells than Lords without stacking. We have 2 choices...
    1) Oh well, they should still get the same number of spells.
    2) That's not fair, we need to subtract the same number of Tiers of spells as they gain.

    Here's the google drive version of the spell distribution charts...
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...UE&usp=sharing
    Last edited by ampoliros; 03-13-2014 at 11:18 PM.

  7. #27
    Archmage of the Outer Ring jamoecw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ampoliros View Post
    The cross-circle stacking distribution is easy since there is only 1 cross-circle spell per Tier (except Tier 2). For each stacked spell you open up, we just need to take away one spell you would normally get from the single-circle chart.
    that much is given, the formula would just help with figuring out where that spell gets taken from.

  8. #28
    Archmage of the Inner Ring ampoliros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamoecw View Post
    that much is given, the formula would just help with figuring out where that spell gets taken from.
    My vote is the highest Tier other spell

  9. #29
    Mage of the Lesser Tower
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    So, yes, as was mentioned earlier in this thread, picking 2 Fire and 1 Destruction means that you are guaranteed to get Fireball - the one and only Tier 3 Fire/Destruction spell. That's just the way this spell system works.
    I'm not yet convinced that that is inevitable, and I'm less sure it was intended -- though of course, Aaron would know best.


    Based on what we've said here, here's my proposal: When Element and Effect Circles stack, you have that combination at that Tier, with spells selected from either side depending on your distribution. So if you have Fire2 and Destruction 1, then you have "Fire/Destruction 3" -- which might be Fireball, but could be another Fire or another Destruction spell.


    If we stick with the intersections being exact, then not only does it make it possible to deliberately choose a lot of your spells, but Fire 4/Destruction 4 gives you Tiers 5, 6, 7, and 8 that all only have "one pick". That means that where Fire 8 gets a spell distribution like "12/12/6/6/5/4/3", Fire4/Destruction4 ends up looking like 18/16/8/6/1/1/1/1. ...Which I think is ridiculous. If instead we read that as Fire/Destruction8, there are possibilities, and it actually becomes directly comparable to just Fire8. Fire6/Destruction2, Fire4/Destruction4, and Fire2/Destruction6 all give the same Tier distribution - but the spells are more likely to come from either Fire or Destruction depending.


    I dawned on me that each Tier of any spell Circle taken should give the player 6 spells. Since a Full Circle is 62 spells, that leaves 2 spells left over if we count Mastery as 10 Tiers.
    I will suggest again that the two Tier 9 spells be left out of this count completely. You could have Fire8/Destruction8 and not get any of the Tier 9 spells; they're special and different and not part of these equations. And that rather neatly means each Circle has 60 spells, so 6 spells per point in magic Circles is perfect. That also makes it so that if you do just one at 9, you get 54 of the 60 spells. ...Then Circle Mastery comes in as the only way to get those last 6, because you can't do Life 10.


    The chart can be filled out logically - Fire5/Destruction5 gives you 60 spells, but the counts can start adding over 12's and 6's because 10+ Tiers have to come from combined Circles, so you're drawing from multiple pools. The intersection spells stop being automatic, so you can't guarantee yourself them - but are twice as likely as anything else, simply for being on both lists.


    When we have multiple combinations, they just combine into each piece, but your total spells remains constant. Fire4/Destruction4/Summoning3 would give you 66 possible spells, from Fire/Destruction8 and Fire/Summoning7. Fire would naturally become central, because it's represented twice. Fire4/Earth4/Summoning4 gives you 72 spells, from Fire/Summoning8 and Earth/Summoning8 -- again, Summoning quietly becomes your focus.


    Fire2/Earth2/Destruction2/Summoning2 has 8 spell picks, making for 48 total spells in Fire/Destruction4, Fire/Summoning4, Earth/Destruction4 and Earth/Summoning4. The evenness of the distribution kind of evens out your spells -- you won't have any Life/Mentalism, but anything from Fire, Earth, Destruction and Summoning up to T4 is pretty fair game.


    I think the models this brings out offer very natural differences between different distributions, which will really make different Lords feel.. um, different. Distinctive. It makes it matter if your Fire/Destruction Lord puts her emphasis in Fire, or Destruction... or doesn't. It does it in ways that seem to me will probably be what someone is `going for'; if they make a Lord with Earth2/Augmentation4/Biomancy3/Summoning2/Protection2 -- that seems to me that they want someone who does all those different things to those degrees, but in a mostly Earth-y way, and this will actually do that. Without denying that their real focus is on Augmentation. And it will do it on an intuitive, background level. Without stacked distributions all ending in 1/1/1...

  10. #30
    Archmage of the Inner Ring ampoliros's Avatar
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    Lintking, I applaud your attempt to address the issue of being able to "fix" what spells we get via the Circles stacking, but there is a serious flaw with your suggestion.

    Using your example, Fire 4 / Destruction 4...
    Your suggested fix says to open up the entire spell trees of both Fire and Destruction up to Tier 8, just only giving 1/2 the spells that Fire 8 / Destruction 8 would have. That is absolutely ridiculous. I should not remotely be able to get, for example, the Fire/Biomancy spells from Tiers 5-8 when I am only choosing Fire 4 and no Biomancy.

    To be sure, I don't think Aaron intended for the Cross-Circle spells to be in such limited quantity - or if he did I really don't think he envisioned being able to choose what high level spells you would get. But the way the Devs laid out the full compliment of 62 spells per Circle, this is what we have.

    Besides, I don't think the Circle stacking issue will be as big of a "flaw" as some of you are thinking it will be. After all, someone picking 4/4 will only have 2 of the 6 Tier 4 spells in each Circle - lots of room to NOT get the spells you want there.
    Last edited by ampoliros; 03-16-2014 at 04:32 AM. Reason: reword to be more clear

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