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Thread: Destruction/Death spells tiers 1 - 8

  1. #21
    Archmage of the Outer Ring jamoecw's Avatar
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    totally missed the enemy part of that spell, makes it a very powerful spell, too powerful in my opinion (a few castings and you can walk into their best cities). save or die should be in this combo, maybe have the save or die affect your own units as well? or have the cost increase based on how many units it will affect (units in play). part of the downside of the spell is that it make you the automatic enemy of everyone, targeting just the sorcerer lord you have prepared to invade isn't exactly weakening it (though i liked the extra save bonuses for better units).

  2. #22
    Battlemage
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troy_Costisick View Post
    Ugh, why? They're just not fun.
    Why wouldn't they be fun? Simple damage spells are boring. If we don't want save or die we have to remove:

    Petrify
    Spells that steal control of units
    Sleep type spells
    Hold type paralyzing spells
    Disintegrate type spells
    Death spells

    Basically any spell that instantly removes enemy unit. Hell charm type spells are even worse. Not only you remove the enemy unit from play but if you charm a powerful unit you can use it to wipe out weaker enemy units. It's like mass death spell.

    Death wish (global kill enemy units) from MoM was one of my favorites. It would remove weaker units while leaving heroes alone.

    Also. Command: Death is weird name. It should be Word of Death.
    Last edited by Beregar; 02-21-2014 at 08:25 PM.

  3. #23
    Archmage of the Central Tower Happerry's Avatar
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    Bloodletting should do more then just 1 damage a turn.. With the greater health values in D&D, only doing one damage would make it pretty useless. Even level one units have around ten health per figure in D&D... I was envisioning it as 1d4 or 1d6..

    And -1 to Unholy Pact and Command: Death.

    Also, Weakness is already in Biomancy, currently..

    ---------- Post added at 01:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:43 PM ----------

    Anyway, I'd really like to know if Oblivion Mote is going to be in summoning or not, but assuming it is, have a list from me.

    Tier 1 : Bloodletting, Touch of Fatigue
    Bloodletting does the bleed damage like discussed. Touch of Fatigue makes a target save or be.. well, fatigued, which debuffs them somewhat and slows them down.

    Tier 2 : Ray of Enfeeblement, Dread Ball
    Ray of Enfeeblement does a temporary strength debuff on the target, which can greatly reduce their damage. Dread Ball is the fireball of necrotic energy.

    Tier 3 : Warp Node
    Warp Node, as mentioned, turns a Node from a good thing into a thing that eats your power.

    Tier 4 : Doom Bolt
    Make the target save or take a fixed amount of damage.

    Tier 5 : Wrack
    Each round, each figure must save or take damage.

    Tier 6 : End of Flesh
    Deals high damage to a target, if this kills the target get a free unit of skeletons.

    Tier 7 : Black Wind
    Everyone in the target tile must save or die.

    Tier 8 : Call the Void
    Target city has every unit within take massive damage and every building within save or be destroyed.
    Last edited by Happerry; 02-21-2014 at 09:45 PM.

  4. #24
    Archmage of the Outer Ring jamoecw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beregar View Post
    Why wouldn't they be fun? Simple damage spells are boring. If we don't want save or die we have to remove:

    Petrify
    Spells that steal control of units
    Sleep type spells
    Hold type paralyzing spells
    Disintegrate type spells
    Death spells

    Basically any spell that instantly removes enemy unit. Hell charm type spells are even worse. Not only you remove the enemy unit from play but if you charm a powerful unit you can use it to wipe out weaker enemy units. It's like mass death spell.

    Death wish (global kill enemy units) from MoM was one of my favorites. It would remove weaker units while leaving heroes alone.

    Also. Command: Death is weird name. It should be Word of Death.
    charm/petrify type spells leave the unit behind, which allows the sorcerers to fight for control of the unit (casting charm/petrify, then dispel in a cycle). this is a big difference from save or die, in which you need a resurrection spell in which to counter (as opposed to an arcane). that being said, this is a strategy game, in which no single unit should be critical to your survival, unlike like DnD.

    the reason as to why i don't like global save or die spells, is that they have the potential of wiping out your entire force. as a result any faction that lacks strong resistances needs to spam death ward (and thus be a life sorcerer), or lose automatically regardless of how well they have been doing, which easily puts the spell in the tier 9 slot, unless there are distinct drawbacks to balance it out (or at least limits).

    ideas for the tier 8 global save or die spell:
    - every unit (including yours) saves or dies.
    - target enemy sorcerer, his units saves or dies up to X HD of units dead per Y mana spent.
    - newly built enemy units must save or die while enchantment is in effect.
    - all enemy living units must save or die, difficulty of save is based on the ratio of your casting skill vs. each of theirs, with the better their ratio the harder the save.

  5. #25
    Archmage of the Inner Ring ampoliros's Avatar
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    Weakness, Touch of Fatigue and Ray of Enfeeblement are all the same spell as far as WoM is concerned. We should pick one of them - and why not Weakness, since it is the MoM spell.
    (I suppose Fatigue would also slow the unit, so it would make a Tier 2 spell that way.)

    Why not combine Wrack and Black Wind into the same spell? They both act per figure. Combining them makes room for another spell.

    The whole point of Doom Bolt is that there is no save. If it's too high a Tier, then it becomes OP for placing on a unit.

    I never liked the name End of Flesh, maybe Decay. The effect is OK.

    d4 damage per turn seems like a lot for a Tier 1 spell. Bloodletting would be the only spell being cast in early combats if it's at d4 damage.
    Last edited by ampoliros; 02-21-2014 at 10:37 PM.

  6. #26
    Archmage of the Central Tower Happerry's Avatar
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    Why does 1d4 seem like a lot to you? It would be huge in MoM, yes, but anything DND based has lots more health. Remember each unit is likely to have a minimum of 10 health per figure at level 1. Assuming each roll is a 4, and it's being casted on a normal infantry unit with four figures, that's a minimum of ten turns to kill them all..

    And if it doesn't roll max damage per turn, it could be significantly longer, at up to forty turns if it always rolls a one. If the units happen to be, say, level two, and actually have a con bonus which would increase their health... well, either could greatly extend the amount of time it takes to kill them.

    (For where I got the ten health minimum, Fighter's in Dnd have a 1d10 HD, and at first level that automatically maximizes. Now I'm not sure what method they'll choose for leveling up and increasing health (Actually rolling the dice isn't that common even when you consider that this is a computer game so random health is probably bad), but the most common one is 'halvsies' which would lead to a fighter gaining either 5 or 6 health per level up. Beyond that, you also add a unit's Con bonus to their health per level, which is likely to be anywhere from +1 to +5 depending on what unit it is. Anyway, anything that only does one damage per round would be utterly useless.)

    And no, Weakness, Touch of Fatigue, and Ray of Enfeeblement are not the same spell as long as you are using DnD rules. Fatigue is, as the spell mentions, a specific status effect, and as long as units have six types of stats, things that effect different stats differently will have different effects.

  7. #27
    Archmage of the Outer Ring jamoecw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ampoliros View Post
    Why not combine Wrack and Black Wind into the same spell? They both act per figure. Combining them makes room for another spell.
    you are mixing up death spell and wrack (wrack is save or damage per figure, death spell is save or die per figure just like black wind). i suggested mixing them as well, after all even though one is used in combat and the other on the world map, they have the same effect and scope.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamoecw View Post
    charm/petrify type spells leave the unit behind, which allows the sorcerers to fight for control of the unit (casting charm/petrify, then dispel in a cycle). this is a big difference from save or die, in which you need a resurrection spell in which to counter (as opposed to an arcane). that being said, this is a strategy game, in which no single unit should be critical to your survival, unlike like DnD.
    Except anyone with any brains uses charm spells to not only destroy the charmed unit but also others around it. Charm does not make the unit immune to damage. It effectively removes the unit from battle and potentially removes multiple units from battle because the enemy uses it to attack other enemy units. Not his own units. It's much more dangerous than simply killing enemy unit.

    Petrify, hold person, sleep all make enemies defenseless and when you can't defend you are dead. All it takes is a single spell followed by an attack.

    The problem for people seems to be that death spell can instantly remove their buffed up hero. However people seem to fail to acknowledge that stealing control of that hero is even worse.

    ---------- Post added at 09:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:40 AM ----------

    My destruction list would be as follows:

    1st: Necrotic Bomb - T - unit; Touch of Fatigue - T - Unit
    2nd: Wrack - T - battlefield; Doom Bolt - T - unit
    3rd: Warp Node - S
    4th: Burst of Corruption - T - AoE
    5th: ?
    6th: Black Wind - S - city
    7th: Call the Void - S - city
    8th: Death Spell/Word of Death - T - battlefield

    Here are my thoughts how they should work. I only note the ones I did changes for. I like the idea that most of death damage is minor but comes with debuff or dot effects.

    Necrotic Bomb: enchanted unit unleashes a burst of negative energy when it dies healing undead and damaging living. Note: small damage and requires unit to be destroyed. Tier1 material but could potentially go higher tier if it can be cast overland as well.

    Doom Bolt: does moderate arcane damage to all figures in a single living unit and causes them to be sickened if it fails fortitude save. Note: in DnD sickened is -2 on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws. Arcane was what Hoverdog used for unspecified damage.

    Wrack: all living units on battlefield suffer damage each turn if they fail a save. Note: indiscriminate against living.

    Burst of Corruption: figures within affected area suffer negative energy damage and must resist with a fortitude save or they are poisoned. Notes: this heals undead which are immune to poison anyway thus tier4.

    Black Wind: dark winds carry death and despair to target city. Target city has penalty to production and increased unrest. All garrisoned living troops suffer damage each round unless they succeed in a save. Notes: cursed lands with unrest increase and damage.

    However I guess we could split this to cursed lands --> city production debuff and black winds --> global enemy affecting unrest and damage?

    Death Spell: all regular living enemy figures on a battlefield must resist or die. Heroes have a bonus to their save. Notes: I think global death spell shold be tier9 death.
    Last edited by Beregar; 02-22-2014 at 08:14 AM.

  9. #29
    Archmage of the Outer Ring jamoecw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beregar View Post
    Except anyone with any brains uses charm spells to not only destroy the charmed unit but also others around it. Charm does not make the unit immune to damage. It effectively removes the unit from battle and potentially removes multiple units from battle because the enemy uses it to attack other enemy units. Not his own units. It's much more dangerous than simply killing enemy unit.
    depends on if you can attack immediately after charming a unit, if not an immediate dispel fixes the issue, otherwise the unit makes 1 or 2 attacks, then dispel fixes the issue (which makes it an expensive damage spell).
    Quote Originally Posted by Beregar View Post
    Petrify, hold person, sleep all make enemies defenseless and when you can't defend you are dead. All it takes is a single spell followed by an attack.
    given the scenarios above, it is ultimately an expensive web spell that costs both wizards some mana.

    so both situations "anyone with any brains" would result in an expensive expenditure for a lesser spell, on the hopes that it becomes a save or die due to the other player not having the casting skill, mana, or desire to keep up (as opposed to an outright save or die).

    i have no problem with targeted save or die spells being in the list, after all it is this combos thing. global save or die needs to be approached carefully though, as either it will be useless (too easy to save), or overpowered (too hard to save), with the 'just right' zone being narrow and race specific. you'll see that i made some suggestions to try and widen the goldilocks zone for the global version of save or die.

  10. #30
    Archmage of the Inner Ring ampoliros's Avatar
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    I have to -1 Beregar's non-MoM interpretations of Doom Bolt and Black Winds.

    The whole point of Doom Bolt is that it does a fixed damage without a save. Yes, other direct damage spells potentially do more damage, but with saving throws, Doom Bolt usually does more damage to high level units.

    Black Winds shouldn't target just cities.

    And I still don't see the problem with combining Wrack and Black Winds. In combat, yes, Wrack is damage per round (and hits friendlies too). But on the overland map a full turn is much longer than a combat, so lore wise we just extrapolate the spell lasts long enough to kill vs only wound (and there aren't any friendlies to hit). It will be simpler to code this way. But I suppose as an alternative, the overland version could simulate a few dozen rounds of combat doing damage if it makes people happy.

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