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Thread: Life Tier 9

  1. #21
    Archmage of the Central Tower Happerry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beregar View Post
    It's like giving the most powerful damage spell to fire and stating it's completely okay because destruction has similar spell. It's absolutely not ok. No one would pick 9 ranks worth of destruction if they can get similar spell from picking fire.
    But you can summon the most powerful normal units in the game in summoning. They're called dragons. And unlike the heroes, you can summon more then one dragon. So your point doesn't exist.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happerry View Post
    But you can summon the most powerful normal units in the game in summoning. They're called dragons. And unlike the heroes, you can summon more then one dragon. So your point doesn't exist.
    What the hell do dragons have to do with hero summons? You should compare apples to apples. Not oranges. The fact that you don't think that sharing the most powerful unit summoning spell would not diminish the role of summoning sphere baffles me.

    It's not even any regular summoning. It's the Hero summon. Dragons are still just regular units. You don't equip and level them like you do heroes. We all know heroes are going to be most powerful units. That's why they are called heroes.

    I get the feeling you don't really want to spend 9 levels worth of picks in summoning while still wanting top tier hero. Still you can't just decide to give all goodies to life or death or any other sphere for that matter. Effect spheres specifically need a powerful carrot because they lack the flexibility of element spheres. They are highly specialized which is a built in disadvantage.

  3. #23
    Archmage of the Outer Ring jamoecw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alghero View Post
    I kinda agree with Beregar that Summoning Tier 9 should be by far the most powerful summoning spell, but I kinda like the idea of the 3 summons by alignment, as long as life and death are weaker that Summoning
    The idea of a recap of all killed units in a single box would be good but I'm just seeing myself overloaded by this popup appearing each turn (as long as I have mana left). We need an idea to avoid big lists of units to select each turn.
    What about keeping dead units in a limbo for x turns and whenever the caster wants to resurrect something, he can access that popup (or whatever) and select whatever he wants to resurrect that turn? It would be similar to Resurrection, I know, but different in 3 ways:
    - only units killed in battle can respawn this way
    - they are kept in this limbo (summoning circle) only for x turns (while Resurrection I believe can resurrect everything)
    - has a fixed upkeep cost independently if I'm using it or not

    And the advantage would be to not have an annoying popup (or even worse a single popup for each unit) every single turn even if nothing worth of respawning died...
    What do you think?
    it can also make it so that the next unit of the same type is a duplicate (same exp and such) as the one you lost. thus no pop ups, and a slight delay in recovery of the units.

    as for the torin issue, i'd definitely make the tier 9 summon the best, but i'd give the tier 9 life version some sort of thematic power (all units in stack are resurrected after a successful battle maybe?). either that or nix it to keep it from stepping on summon's toes (i like the torin concept, but beregar makes a good case).

  4. #24
    Mage of the Lesser Tower
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    The Element Sphere top spells are going to cross over with the Effect Spheres. I can't imagine we're going to have Tier 9 Fire spells that don't destroy anything. Angelic Pact could easily be said to work better as a Protection or Biomancy spell (Or Summoning, too; I do remember the argument for putting Resurrectio there)... and all the replacements for the Hero Summoning that I can think of for Tier 9 Life are definitely Augmentations. (Something based on MoM's Charm of Life would be a great Tier 9 Life, for instance.. or a great Tier 9 Augmentation. Or a Tier 8 Life/Augmentation, but I believe we're done with those.) I don't see any way to avoid it. Trying to find effects for the Elemental Spheres that aren't like our, er, Effect Spheres might be possible, but, well, I don't see it happening unless we really, really, really draw that line and work for it. Can we really say that none of the Tier 9 Element spells can Augment, Destroy, Summon, or Protect anything, or work on anyone's bodies or minds? I... kind of don't think so.

    But with that said - having three of the absolute pinnacle spells do basically the same thing, bugs me. I mean, these are our Tier 9 spells. They should be distinctive.

    I like the idea of having high-level Champions for Life and Death, and, sure, something Neutral too, but I do think it's a significant point that we're basing the current plan on an alignment system that we really aren't implementing along with it. So maybe we can break it away from that a little bit and just come up with a small selection of potential "Incarnations". I would like the idea of Summoning having a Tier 9 spell that can choose an Incarnation to Summon. Any Lord (even a Summoner) could only have one Incarnation at a time, and only one of each Incarnation will ever exist in a game. (So once someone gets the Incarnation of Life, no one else will - even a Summoner Lord would lose that option, if a Life Lord obtained them by other means earlier in the game.)

    And everybody else can hope... to reach one through a Random Event, or there might be World Features that can do it -- like on the Paradise Plain, maybe there's a place you can go that gives you a shot at the Incarnation of Life. I know talking about Heroes is something we still have to do, and I'm looking forward to that - but for now, I'd just say, I'd like the Life and Death Champions to be something that can present themselves to you as the game progresses, with a probability based significantly on how many Circles you have assigned to Life or Death books. I'd probably like Champions tied to other Circles, too - not all at the same level, but just scattered throughout our Hero roster, along with Heroes connected to different Factions and maybe even certain Discipline selections. So that different games will be offered different Heroes.

  5. #25
    Archmage of the Central Tower Happerry's Avatar
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    There is an Alignment system though. It's DnD's twin axis system, between good and evil, and order verses chaos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beregar View Post
    What the hell do dragons have to do with hero summons? You should compare apples to apples. Not oranges. The fact that you don't think that sharing the most powerful unit summoning spell would not diminish the role of summoning sphere baffles me.

    It's not even any regular summoning. It's the Hero summon. Dragons are still just regular units. You don't equip and level them like you do heroes. We all know heroes are going to be most powerful units. That's why they are called heroes.

    I get the feeling you don't really want to spend 9 levels worth of picks in summoning while still wanting top tier hero. Still you can't just decide to give all goodies to life or death or any other sphere for that matter. Effect spheres specifically need a powerful carrot because they lack the flexibility of element spheres. They are highly specialized which is a built in disadvantage.
    Dragons matter because they're the most powerful unit type in the game, and being a summoning master means you can summon whole packs of them. These aren't some easily killed flying reptiles, they're literally some of the strongest creatures in the game, and can be expected to casually munch the vast majority of heroes from their starting point unless said hero has been brought up to super elite champion level and given the best equipment. And you can only have one of each hero, verses lots of dragons.

    And your whole complaint was that other spheres being able to summon took the 'best at summoning' title away from the summoning sphere, which being able to summon Dragons makes utterly untrue. Yes, they aren't heroes. That doesn't actually matter, because they're still summoning's trump card, and other sphere's being able to summon heroes doesn't change that.

    Just because effect sphere's are specalized doesn't mean nothing else can play in their field. If that was true, none of the elemental sphere's could have a tier 9 spell.

  6. #26
    Archmage of the Outer Ring jamoecw's Avatar
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    so what if the life incarnation is a hero (not champion) that heals all damage on all stacked units and resurrects all stacked units after a successful battle (even itself)?

    the death incarnation is a champion (not super champion) that is undead and has a weak attack that is also save or die?

    and the summoner incarnation is a super champion (torin level)?

  7. #27
    Archmage of the Inner Ring ampoliros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lintking View Post
    The Element Sphere top spells are going to cross over with the Effect Spheres.
    True. But I think it's a bad practice to be so blatant with the crossover.

    I honestly wouldn't have a problem with a summoned unit lower in a non-Summoning tree. Tier 9 really breaks it tho. You don't get more powerful than Tier 9. Trying to say "well, just make the Life and Death T9 summons less powerful" then makes Life and Death weaker - it's not a valid argument.

    Life and Death aren't even thematically anywhere near summoning, so why would they have a summon as a T9 spell??? (Incidentally when we come to Fire, Fire is thematically about destruction, so as long as Fire's T9 spells are not pure destruction I would expect one of them to include damage)

    Honestly, I'm surprised Aaron is OK with summons in Life's and Death's Tier 9 since he created this spell system to have distinct spell sorting, distinct play styles available.


    EDIT: "I honestly wouldn't have a problem with a summoned unit lower in a non-Summoning tree." -- If the summon were heavily thematic to where it was placed and not just pure brawn.
    Last edited by ampoliros; 02-23-2014 at 07:30 PM. Reason: typo

  8. #28
    Mage’s Assistant
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    The life hero seems too powerful, it's basically impossible to kill him unless his army is completely obliterated, so any guerrilla style tactic to weaken that army is useless...
    What it we remove the (even itself) ?

    ---------- Post added at 01:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:25 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ampoliros View Post
    I honestly wouldn't have a problem with a summoned unit lower in a non-Summoning tree. Tier 9 really breaks it tho. You don't get more powerful than Tier 9. Trying to say "well, just make the Life and Death T9 summons less powerful" then makes Life and Death weaker - it's not a valid argument.
    What about a poll and see what's the outcome?

  9. #29
    Archmage of the Central Tower Happerry's Avatar
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    Again, by that logic tier 9 spells can't damage or enhance things either, because that's blatently being destruction or augmentation. That's bad logic. Summoning is still better at summoning then life or death is, and that's what matters.

  10. #30
    Archmage of the Outer Ring jamoecw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alghero View Post
    The life hero seems too powerful, it's basically impossible to kill him unless his army is completely obliterated, so any guerrilla style tactic to weaken that army is useless...
    What it we remove the (even itself) ?
    i think it needs the '(even itself)' aspect due to being not that great of a unit, and the spell being tier 9 should be late game. so just focusing that one unit can wipe out your tier 9 spell seems a bit off. think of it as a tier 9 spell that makes an 8.5 man stack immune to attrition, probably not OP when compared with a global save or die, or a spell that gives you an enemy city without a fight.

    that being said, the hero can be weakened (people say heroes are significantly weaker than champions already) and so can the amount of HP recovered for the stack after battle, as well as increasing the upkeep as well as the cost of the spell. i think that an exceptional ability that helps people paired up with a not so great hero is the way to go for a tier 9 life summon, assuming we have one.
    Last edited by jamoecw; 02-23-2014 at 09:51 PM.

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