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Thread: A Matter of Pacing

  1. #81
    Lol. (<- I actually laughed out loud that time.) Yes, we'll try to make the AI stop quaking in fear and giving it's empires away.
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  2. #82
    Archmage of the Central Tower Happerry's Avatar
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    I am against the AI being ignored by barbarians myself.
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  3. #83
    Mage of the Lesser Tower
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
    OK guys, in this post we're going to discuss WoM's pacing (especially in the early game). What do I mean by “pacing”? Well, “pacing” is the speed at which the game seems to move. At the moment WoM has a very slow early game and a number of people want us to speed it up. There are a number of ways to do this and a number of things we have to consider before we decide to change anything.


    Do you guys agree with my assessment? Do you have anything to add? Do you have any suggestions concerning early game pacing?

    Speak up guys. You know we're listening
    One thing I've noticed is that there are too many solo Marids guarding things in the weirdest places. There are as many of them on the PMP as there are on the shadow plane, for example. They're powerful and so can only be taken out in the middle game - this then seems to be a pacing issue.

    Re: the number of features - there are, I think, too many. With such an abundance of huts it becomes a chore to clear them out around your cities. Don't get me wrong, they're good - but I think there are too many of them, especially the gateways (but I already reported that as a bug in the tech thread).

    The other thing is that, currently, the game is about clearing huts instead of seeking out / interacting with other sorc lords. One way to fix this might be to let the enemy lords loot the same huts you are looting, to create competition.

  4. #84
    Happerry, I agree that neutrals should attack the other sorcerer lords. The AI that controls them just has to be able to deal with the attacks in a reasonable way.

    Yco, as we get more roaming creatures in place you will find less Marids guarding things.

    And the number of world features won't seem too great once the enemy sorcerer lords start taking them. At that point there may seem to be all too few, lol. (Which you mentioned in your next point.)

    Again, this is mainly to do with AI. As the enemy sorcerer lords start playing better they will be clearing out goody huts and will stand out as your main enemies.
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  5. #85
    Arcane Candidate
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    The early game pacing is pretty boring. There aren't enough troops for you to build without building a lot of other buildings first and many of those buildings don't do enough -- for example, in a high men city if you build a stable it doesn't let you build cavalry, and if you build a wizard's guild you don't actually get to build wizards. There aren't enough low level summonables either to offset the lack of useful low level units, and you don't have enough mana to buff the heck out of the units you do have.

  6. #86
    Zombies, Nagas, and Air Elementals are all low tier summons. I use zombies a ton in my early games. I do agree that that the early buildings take too long to build (and the late ones too little). I hope that's addressed soon. As for the High Men not getting wizards, that's a result of the current financial limitations of the game. I am positive that future DLC will add them in.
    My RPG Design and Theory Blog: http://socratesrpg.blogspot.com/

  7. #87
    Sorcerer of the Lesser Tower
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    your mistake is playing high men. in comparison to pretty much every other race right now theyre a bit underwhelming.

  8. #88
    Mage’s Assistant
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    I recently started up my 2nd game (haven't played MoM in years, randomly searched for it for an emulator again, found this game's existence, squee'd, purchased immediately, loving it so far, etc.) to test out the Unhallowed, and as of turn 312, there are at least 1, maybe 2 "super armies" of Neutrals hovering around my cities. The first time I saw one I thought "Uh oh, there go all of my cities besides the Capital", so now I'm just hoping the AI doesn't get bloodthirsty beyond the first city they already took.

    Now to be clear, I'm not good at this game at the moment, so I'm just casually exploring and building up cities/spells/etc. However, I'm curious about what typical pacing is in this game these days. I know the AI in battles mostly just knows how to retreat (if only I could figure out how mid-battle, if you even can), but what sort of marauding forces should I expect at various turn-levels? I've heard mention of "the neutral horde", so this could be one of those tuning things. I've yet to do a full perusal of the forums and get back up to speed. With this sort of army standing outside my door, I'm not sure exactly how I could protect more than a couple cities:

    1x Huecuvas
    2x Zombies
    1x Mummies
    2x Arcane Wraiths
    1x Death Guards
    1x Reapers
    1x Ghouls

    I understand since I'm also Unhallowed so multiple of those units can't even hurt most of my units, but with little experience in the game, this feels ultra intimidating.

    Also, I did experience the fact that many of the areas outside my starting base seemed basically invincible to anything I could make in the first 400 turns, so I can get behind the idea of putting more low-level areas closer to starting cities. Otherwise, I'd love to give feedback on pacing, I'm just not sure what the desired pacing "is" at this point to know if I'm just being a bad (very likely) or if the game is accelerating beyond my control.

    I always took MoM pretty casually and like to just build up immensely, so clicking "next turn" several times in a row early-game doesn't bother me much. I'm more concerned about the "now you should be prepared to fight X Tier of armies" pacing at the moment. I think my Capital is safe, but I'm pretty sure I'm going down to just my Capital if the Neutral God wills it.

  9. #89
    Mage’s Assistant
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    First, the neutral city hordes depends on the size of the plane(s) you are playing: the bigger, the worse since the generator seems to spread them at a similar distance regardless of plane size, so the larger the area, the more there are. You can assume up to 40 neutrals on Colossal and work down from there. First rush is about T50 when there are 2-3 level 1 starting units per army. Around T100, you will start seeing slightly larger armies and/or somewhat higher level starting units with the very occasional higher tier opponent. By T150, all those trends are continuing, especially the appearance of higher tier units. And so on and so on. The thing with the very large planes is that some neutral cities are 30 turns away (assuming panagea) so you are always getting a blend of incoming. The secret if you are in serious trouble is defend your best cities and have at least one mobile army. If a horde takes a city, it tends to split in half - one half moving on, the other half staying as a garrison. This generally means that now you can beat both halves when the whole was pretty daunting. Other hints:

    - militia are you friends, especially if they have a ranged attack (a size 16 Elven city only needs a couple of H2H garrison units to allow the archers to get off all their shots; fall back, shoot, rinse and repeat)

    - only stacks with lots of ranged capability are really dangerous try to deal with them with your mobile army/armies

    - use garrisons whenever possible to attack weak neutral armies. A bunch of level 3 units in your garrisons is a huge difference compared to level 1

    - any fortifications really help city defense, especially if you have ranged units inside.

    Now the bigger question: so at this point, the determinant of pacing is building a civilization big enough to handle the hordes but not so big that you can't defend the outer cities. Now the promised AI improvements are going to change all that - the AI opponents will become competitive - which they are not in any way at all currently - and will also tame (or at least tone down) the rampaging neutral city hordes. then staying ahead (or getting ahead) of the other wizards becomes the driver for pacing.

    But the real answer is that there is no wrong pace and no right pace - except for each individual player. I like to expand fast - overly fast quite possibly and then play 100 turns of desperate defense while building the infrastructure to finally break out for another expansion phase. Other players prefer a much more leisurely starting pace that can be more or less maintained for the game.

  10. #90
    Mage’s Assistant
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    Thanks for the detail, Glorfindel! That seems to jive with what I was experiencing in my second play, though I've only played Medium-sized land-masses. By turn 70 I was in better shape than I was at turn 370 in my first game, so a lot less diddling around goes a long way (and a lot less losing my armies to unfamiliar Feature mobs). I love expansion, so over-reaching is going to be a recurring problem for me unless the game is set to E-Z Pace (which would be nice as an option, but I don't think should be a standard).

    There's definitely no right/wrong answer for pacing, though some sort of slider/option for pacing is probably a good approach. In just the past 6 hours I've learned more about subtle nuance to optimizing economic and combat efficiencies in MoM/WoM than I ever cared to learn back when I was 11 or whatever. I've run into some game freezing/crashing on my latest playthrough, but I'm still excited to get back in and tinker around with it more to get a better feel for pacing now that I'm getting a better feel for the game overall.

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