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Thread: Circles and Potential Spell Lists Questions

  1. #1
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    Question Circles and Potential Spell Lists Questions

    I've been spending time reading about the spell system and figuring out Fun ways to utilize it and deciding that it's really neat. I have a solid grasp on how the Circles work and how Cross-Circles work (I think), but I have a question regarding how multiple circles affect the potential spell list for the Sorcerer Lord.

    My understanding is that two Circles combine to determine which Tier spells one can learn. The most commonly quoted example is that if Destruction + Fire is equal to or greater than 3, then the Sorcerer Lord may be able to learn Fireball. If a Sorcerer Lord has Destruction 3 OR Fire 3, then there's a chance that Fireball will be in his/her spellbook during the game. If a Sorcerer Lord has Destruction AND Fire that total to 3 or more, then Fireball is guaranteed to be in his/her spellbook during the game. This is true even if neither Fire nor Destruction are themselves level 3 or higher. In any event, the Sorcerer Lord will still have to research the spell.

    Fire 3, Destruction 0: Chance for Fireball
    Fire 0, Destruction 3: Chance for Fireball
    Fire 1 + Destruction 2 or Destruction 2 + Fire 1: Guaranteed Fireball
    X Fire + Y Destruction > 3: Guaranteed Fireball
    Fire 1 + Destruction 1: No Fireball for You

    Provided my understanding of this is correct, then I run into trouble determining potential spellbooks for multi-Circle Sorcerer Lords based on the Potential Spell List that's on the Wiki (usual 'subject to change, may not be accurate' spiel goes here). Which Circle, if any, is used to determine the maximum number of spells available to a given Tier? Does each Circle get the listed quantity of potential spells, with guarantees of the Cross-Circle spells, or does only the highest level Circle apply, outside of specific Cross-Circle spells above the highest Circle's level?

    Example:
    If I roll a Sorcerer Lord with Earth 3/Mentalism 5, then, if my understanding is correct, my spellbook will someday include:
    A Tier 8 Earth/Mentalism spell
    A Tier 7 Earth/Mentalism spell
    A Tier 6 Earth/Mentalism spell
    A Tier 5 Earth/Mentalism spell
    A Tier 4 Earth/Mentalism spell
    A Tier 3 Earth/Mentalism spell
    Two Tier 2 Earth/Mentalism spells
    Two Tier 1 Earth/Mentalism spells
    Some other Earth/* spells
    Some other */Mentalism spells
    (That's the easy part.)

    Provided I'm understanding correctly, the Potential Spell List page of the Wiki tells me that my 5 Circle Mentalism will give me 12 T1, 10 T2, 4 T3, 4 T4, and 3 T5 spells. My 3 Circle Earth will give me 10 T1, 7 T2, and 3 T3 spells. The Cross-Circles are guaranteed to be there and are counted in the spell counts. The additional spells above and beyond that, though, will come from either Earth or Mentalism. I will not have any Earth spells above T3 except for the Earth/Mentalism ones, nor any Mentalism spells above T5 except for the Earth/Mentalism ones. I'll never learn any T9 spells because a) my Circles don't total to 9 and b) T9 spells are limited to those that have 9 Circles in that aspect, anyway, which is why they are so powerful and rare. (That's the other easy part and is very intuitive.)


    (This is the hard part.)
    So, let's look at Tier 3. I'll get an Earth/Mentalism spell because that's guaranteed. Now, will I then get 3 other Mentalism spells as well as 2 other Earth spells, or will I still only have a total of 4 T3 spells, which might be Earth/* or */Mentalism, due my highest Circle (Mentalism) rank?

    Further, will the randomly generated spellbook take into account overlap between the Circles and the guaranteed Cross-Circle spells so that, in essence, there's every reason to expect that I would get all T1 Earth and all T1 Mentalism spells (the Earth/Mentalism ones are guaranteed and can be counted against the Mentalism's count of 12 T1 spells, leaving the 10 Earth spells to be filled with everything else from that Tier in Earth)?

    The situation becomes muddier with three Circles to draw from, but I'm reasonably confident that the answer to a two-Circle situation would apply evenly to a more greatly diversified Circle selection, as well.
    Last edited by Battledawn; 09-17-2014 at 10:15 PM.

  2. #2
    Archmage of the Inner Ring ampoliros's Avatar
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    Actually, any combination of 3 tiers of Fire and Destruction will open up the chance of getting Fireball, which is a Tier 3 Fire/Destruction spell.
    There is no guarantee of getting Fireball unless you are a Fire Master or a Destruction Master.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by ampoliros View Post
    Actually, any combination of 3 tiers of Fire and Destruction will open up the chance of getting Fireball, which is a Tier 3 Fire/Destruction spell.
    There is no guarantee of getting Fireball unless you are a Fire Master or a Destruction Master.
    The information provided on the Wiki currently suggests otherwise.

    All potential cross-circles spells are automatically added to the list, so a player that chooses two complimentary
    spell circles is guaranteed to get the spells where those circles combine


    It's not impossible that the Wiki is out of date or that I'm misreading it, however.

    My other questions would still apply.
    Last edited by Battledawn; 09-17-2014 at 11:19 PM. Reason: Edited for font silliness.

  4. #4
    Battledawn, I overlooked this post somehow and it's late today (relatively anyway). I'll try to give you a real reply tomorrow
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  5. #5
    ampoliros, we actually did add the guarantee. I feel like it gives the player more control over the spell list. Someone (I don't remember who it was) pointed out that they would be annoyed if that had taken fire 2 and destruction 2 and didn't get fireball. Having thought about it I realized I would be annoyed as well. Plus it solves some other issues with the system when you start dealing with three or four circles.

    OK Battledawn, you've got the idea on how elemental and effect circles work together. Your explanation is absolutely right.

    Your break down on the “easy part” is also correct. Now, you get potential spells for each circle independently. So, you would get all 12 tier 1 mentalism spells (two of which would be the tier 1 earth/mentalism spells) and 10 tier 1 earth spells (two of which would be the tier 1 earth/mentalism spells).

    For tier 3 you would get 3 earth spells (one of which would be the tier 3 earth/mentalism spell) and 4 mentalism spells (one of which would be the tier 3 earth/mentalism spell). So, you would end up with 2 more tier 3 Earth/* spells and 3 more */Mentalism spells.

    And, yes, as each circle works independently it will work all the way up to using all 12 circles. If you took 1 tier in all 12 circles you would end up with 72 tier one spells (all of them) and 72 tier two spells (again, all of them). Now, at first it seems that this goes beyond the normal number of potential spells (which it technically does). However, the guaranteed cross-over spells trump the normal limit.

    So, you would get all the tier 1 spells because you get 6 tier one spells from each circle. You would get 6 life spells because you have tier 1 life and an additional 6 life spells because you have 1 tier in each of the elements. You would get all the tier 2 spells because the cross-over spells are guaranteed and you would have 1+1 in all the elements and effects.

    I hope this explanation helps
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  6. #6
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    Perfect, exactly the information I needed. Now I can reasonably plan my spellbook against Circle point expenditure.

    The set-up does create for a little bit of 'waste' in the lower tiers if one is predisposed to have multiple decently-ranked Circles, though some overlap planning ought ameliorate that somewhat. Specifically, off the top of my head and not taking time to bother actually running the numbers because I'm at work (so obviously taken with a grain of salt), I'm thinking that taking ranks in multiple Elements rather than Effects, or multiple Effects rather than Elements, would certainly eliminate the 'waste', but then one is less guaranteed to get the spells that one wants. Mixing Elements and Effects will guarantee certain spells, and balancing the ranks can virtually guarantee others, but one ends up with 'wasted' slots in the lower tiers, too--probably a fair trade-off.

  7. #7
    Archmage of the Inner Ring ampoliros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
    ampoliros, we actually did add the guarantee. I feel like it gives the player more control over the spell list. Someone (I don't remember who it was) pointed out that they would be annoyed if that had taken fire 2 and destruction 2 and didn't get fireball. Having thought about it I realized I would be annoyed as well. Plus it solves some other issues with the system when you start dealing with three or four circles.
    Ummmm so how does that work out? How can some Tier 3 spells be guaranteed and others not? This seems like a very very bad idea to me. Who decides what the guaranteed spells are? Not everyone is going to agree on what they should be.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by ampoliros View Post
    Ummmm so how does that work out? How can some Tier 3 spells be guaranteed and others not? This seems like a very very bad idea to me. Who decides what the guaranteed spells are? Not everyone is going to agree on what they should be.
    They're guaranteed because you have both circles for that spell.
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  9. #9
    Archmage of the Outer Ring jamoecw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
    ampoliros, we actually did add the guarantee. I feel like it gives the player more control over the spell list. Someone (I don't remember who it was) pointed out that they would be annoyed if that had taken fire 2 and destruction 2 and didn't get fireball. Having thought about it I realized I would be annoyed as well. Plus it solves some other issues with the system when you start dealing with three or four circles.

    OK Battledawn, you've got the idea on how elemental and effect circles work together. Your explanation is absolutely right.

    Your break down on the “easy part” is also correct. Now, you get potential spells for each circle independently. So, you would get all 12 tier 1 mentalism spells (two of which would be the tier 1 earth/mentalism spells) and 10 tier 1 earth spells (two of which would be the tier 1 earth/mentalism spells).

    For tier 3 you would get 3 earth spells (one of which would be the tier 3 earth/mentalism spell) and 4 mentalism spells (one of which would be the tier 3 earth/mentalism spell). So, you would end up with 2 more tier 3 Earth/* spells and 3 more */Mentalism spells.

    And, yes, as each circle works independently it will work all the way up to using all 12 circles. If you took 1 tier in all 12 circles you would end up with 72 tier one spells (all of them) and 72 tier two spells (again, all of them). Now, at first it seems that this goes beyond the normal number of potential spells (which it technically does). However, the guaranteed cross-over spells trump the normal limit.

    So, you would get all the tier 1 spells because you get 6 tier one spells from each circle. You would get 6 life spells because you have tier 1 life and an additional 6 life spells because you have 1 tier in each of the elements. You would get all the tier 2 spells because the cross-over spells are guaranteed and you would have 1+1 in all the elements and effects.

    I hope this explanation helps
    so adding 6 element tiers would guarantee all of the effect circles you pick + 1 extra level (except 9th of course). now the question is:
    do those count against you total in the element circles.
    is that 24 extra level 1 spells or 36?

    13 points would get you all but the ultimate spells of one circle plus a decent amount of level 1 spells. it only costs 1 point more than getting all the spells + the ultimates. it would be an interesting tactic to attempt once things get fleshed out more to see if a change is needed, those 24/36 spells might not be worth the 2 ultimates, or they might be worth much more than the 1 point (hopefully it is a wash, just a different tactic).

  10. #10
    Archmage of the Inner Ring ampoliros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troy_Costisick View Post
    They're guaranteed because you have both circles for that spell.
    So WI decided that you get ALL of the spells you have the Tiers for every game? That is SO wrong.

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