AD&D2e Not Really What It Seems

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

This is taken from another topic in the Worlds of Magic forum: http://forum.wastelands-interactive....echanics/page2

I'm learning some d20 right now and I appreciate the increased logic and so on. As I said a fine system and a solid choice for WoM.

But AD&D, guys, you must have no heart.
How can anyone speak ill of AD&D?!?!?

Fondest memories ever.
And it gave you Ravenloft, Planescape, even good ol' Forgotten Realms.
It's the stuff of legend.
Folks, seriously. We are NOT having this argument

All those settings are filled with wonderful ideas, anecdotes, and rich characters, and I've owned them all at one point or another and cherished them while they were in my collection. But the sad truth is, none of them (NONE) were written with the idea that people would actually need to find that information useful for actual play. Anytime you read something from AD&D, especially second edition, you - the consumer - have to go through all kinds contortions to hammer it into something remotely useful for what happens at the table. AD&D2e was an incredibly poorly written and incompetently executed game. I could offer mountains of proof, but all I need to say is this: if it were anything else other that what I have described, would TSR had needed WotC to bail them out at the end of the 90's?

[zdsdead]

I love 2nd edition Troy :-)

Played it for years. Yes theres plenty of house rules, but our group actually prefers it to all the skills/feats in later editions. In fact I have a 11th level fighter, which Im pretty sure is going to be in the WOM!!!!! His names Krieg, and he wields a 2h axe, and has 19 strength!! ;-)

[Aaron]

I admit that it was bad. I also freely confess that I loved it.

Back in the day I had actually started work on a set of programs to help 2nd edition dungeon masters. We (Jonathan Cooper and I) had written an app called "The Hoard" for rolling up treasures. It could roll up like 20 A treasures in moments. Well... you still had to select all the "DM Picks" it rolled up. Still, it saved a lot of time when making treasures, lol.

[Troy_Costisick]

I'm not saying it's bad to play. I loved it to, and in fact if I just wanted a system that would enable to just sit around and talk in character and pretend to be in a fantasy world, AD&D2e is it for me. However, from a design perspective, it is... just lacking so many basic things, IMHO

[kilobug]

I love 2nd edition too, my favorite one, especially with all the add-ons ("player options" and "high level campaigns"). There were a few glitches and silly things that were easy to homerule, but the settngs (especially Planescape) were awesome, and the rules had some... life which is lacking IMHO in the D20 system. D20 is good for computer games, but for pen&paper games, it feels way too mechanical, and somewhat spoils the fun. D20 is great if you want to minimax your character by taking one level of that class to get that feat and then combine it with this, but it's not what I look from a RPG settings.

[mastroego]

Also TSR bankrupted for several reasons (for instance, the mistake of producing almost mutually exclusive lines of products), it's unfair to pin it on "inferior quality".
If anything, they started the phenomenon with the more suggestive material.

I mean, there's no need to go far, just look at the drop of in the art's quality. In D&D and AD&D 2nd Ed. it was nothing short of iconic, in 3rd edition is ... hm, insert word.
WotC has probably a better business model (still, they eventually lost of great piece of the market to Paizo) and was helped by the juggernaut power of the whole Magic the Gathering line of products.

[Endless Rain]

All those settings are filled with wonderful ideas, anecdotes, and rich characters, and I've owned them all at one point or another and cherished them while they were in my collection. But the sad truth is, none of them (NONE) were written with the idea that people would actually need to find that information useful for actual play. Anytime you read something from AD&D, especially second edition, you - the consumer - have to go through all kinds contortions to hammer it into something remotely useful for what happens at the table. AD&D2e was an incredibly poorly written and incompetently executed game. I could offer mountains of proof, but all I need to say is this: if it were anything else other that what I have described, would TSR had needed WotC to bail them out at the end of the 90's?

Why do you think it's that bad? I've always considered it a mediocre system, though I think it can be pretty good with houserules and the add-ons like the players option books. If anyone's curious about my edition preferences, it's 3.5/PF > 4e > 2e > 1e > OD&D > 5e > BECMI