Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 18

Thread: Taking On City Spam

  1. #1

    Taking On City Spam

    OK guys, this is just a quick post to let you all in on something we're considering to put a bit of a throttle on city spam.

    Before I jump in I want to point out that city spam isn't going to be as big an issue as it may seem now. One of the mechanics we already have for limiting it isn't in place yet. That being the fact that a city looses 1K population whenever it builds a settler. This prevents a player from creating population with settlers. So, you can't just flood the world with citizens. You have to wait for the population to increase before you spread out too far.

    Still, we realize this isn't enough, but we don't just want put a bunch of limiters on it. Instead we want to come up with something that feels “natural” and fits the overall theme of the game. So, what have we got right now? Limitations tied to fame.

    Rather than just hard capping the number of cities or population or something like that we want to tie your empire's size to your fame. The idea is that as your empire's population increases you begin to suffer from a growing unrest penalty. This will make the population harder to control and will slow down population growth.

    Now, there will actually be several ways to handle this situation. Ensuring that you have all the unrest reducing buildings you can have in each city will help, as will certain spells. However, the real trick to eliminating this penalty is going to be fame. In simple terms: The more famous you are the larger your empire can be without penalty.

    It's also important to note that this limitation won't effect the Unhallowed. They don't suffer from unrest and are meant to use more “zerg-like” techniques.

    This limitation won't greatly effect some players as they're going to be out there getting fame with victory after victory. But it will prevent players from “turtle-ing” together huge empires.

    Of course, for players that like to have a large number of smaller cities that will still be possible. The larger a city's population the larger the problem of unrest. By strategically building settlers to lower a city's population you'll be able to spread out and place cities strategically to take advantage of world resources.

    In the end we want city spamming to be a valid strategy, not the only valid strategy.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by Troy_Costisick; 03-13-2015 at 12:20 AM.
    Everybody needs friends! Aaron's Facebook Page

  2. #2
    Neophyte Sorcerer
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    SK, Can
    Posts
    40
    The primary methods of gaming Fame in Master of Magic were through military action (specifically, defeating enemies of a sufficient numerical size, or in some cases, strength), conquering cities, having a specific character pick, having a Famous hero, or casting a specific spell. Losing Fame was possible through botched military action (specifically, losing battles where you greatly outnumbered your opponent, sometimes regardless of relative levels of power), burning a city to the ground (loss scaled to city size), or the deaths of your Heroes and Champions.

    Which is to say, this Fame-based scaling limitation really depends on the methods through which Fame is earned and lost within Worlds of Magic.

    --If I'm using multiple military encounters to chip away at a world feature and therefore don't defeat the guardians there all in one go, do I still get the fame of having cleared out the feature? If the answer is no, then why use this strategy?

    --If I'm developing my cities to the point that they are grand and magnificent, does this earn me Fame as people far and wide hear tales of my legendary urban utopia? Should it? If the answer is yes, then I can use my reputation as a competent developer to expand, as it were, as real-world land and home developers do. If the answer is no, then my dreams of building a fertile utopia may require me to instead make the planes run rivers of blood to get the Fame needed to expand reliably. At that point, why not just play Yet Another Army-Obsessed Wizard.

    --Do I/Should I get any Fame for researching particularly legendary and difficult to master spells (Tier 9, e.g.), as my powers as a Sorcerer Lord grow so monumental that even other Sorcerer Lords are forced to pause and consider me with respect and, surely, mere mortals look upon me as nigh-godly? If the answer is yes, how is 'legendary and difficult to master' defined?

    --Specifically how much will Fame, or the lack of it, increase/decrease unrest? Will the unrest generated by not being Famous enough be tied to overall population, number of cities, both, or neither? An analysis of the breaking point between being Famous Enough and Not Famous Enough will certainly be ongoing as that information takes more concrete form over the coming weeks and months, and ought rightly be considered an ambitious undertaking. (Example: Civ V's use of a system of population and number of cities affecting civil unrest, and how it really doesn't matter once you reach a certain critical mass. Sort of ditto for Culture, humorously enough.)

    Conclusion: More Information Needed, Awaiting Patch and Play Time
    Bias: I play at extremes, either sitting in my unbreakable fortress of power or expanding in all directions, but given the option, tend most often to be an admitted city spammer myself.
    Last edited by Battledawn; 11-19-2014 at 09:38 PM. Reason: Added additional Pointless Question

  3. #3
    Archmage of the Outer Ring jamoecw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    1,047
    if i am not mistaken MoM's fame score simply increased the value and likelihood of merchants (items), mercenaries, and heroes offering their services as well as an increase in the end game score.

    perhaps the value of fame on the chances of people offering their services should be divided by the number of cities in your empire. as a large industrious empire can summon heroes with spells and make powerful items, this would give small super city empires a leg up in expensive mercenaries to bolster their lower troop production.

  4. #4
    Battledawn, those are some excellent points. If I understand your stance it's: "This could work if fame and the unrest penalty are handled properly." If that is your view I completely agree.

    Jamo, that's also an interesting idea. I'm not sure it's the direction we want to go, but we can certainly keep it in the "think pile".
    Everybody needs friends! Aaron's Facebook Page

  5. #5
    Archmage of the Central Tower Happerry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    1,770
    Personally in Civilization I always hated the hell out of those kinds of limits. They just felt like they were punishing you for being successful, generally.

    I guess if done right it could be ok, but, well, I wouldn't be confident about it.

    Also +1 for Battledawn.
    The Wiki.

  6. #6
    Neophyte Sorcerer
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    SK, Can
    Posts
    40
    Essentially, yes, I'm willing to read the notes and do the math and see if the process actually works. My initial concern is, simply, that if additional methods by which to earn Fame aren't considered, then expansion can only take place at all concurrent with extensive military operations. Now, that may be okay for the seizing of new territory, but it can potentially hamper expansion, as well.

    Example to consider to put into my frame of mind would be a player starting on a small-ish continent with relatively few world resources of note (few or no large armies of guardians, few or no dangerous beasts of legend) and few or no neutral cities to conquer. Such a player, if so predisposed, would have relatively no limits to establishing additional cities for long-term value beyond balancing out Settler production and assigning garrisons. N additional colonies or cities would be established to form this mini-kingdom without reliance on military conquest. How significantly Fame influences civil unrest is a factor which determines a realistic value for N by virtue of the fact that a breaking point can occur at which new cities are established and immediately engulfed in riots and unable to produce enough food to keep themselves alive.

    Preventing those sorts of failed colonies would require staffing them with larger garrisons from the onset and devoting resources to unrest-reducing buildings as quickly as possible. That hinders using the outposts as quick army-producing military bases, and indeed the empire's ability to field an army that would be required to earn the Fame to keep its people happy, since the army instead has to stay at home to keep the people from rioting. Instead of preventing players from turtling together huge empires, the situation might crop up where there's no other option for at least a certain length of time--which may or may not be an issue, depending on the individual player and options selected at the game's start. In short, if N is small (lack of Fame influences civil unrest heavily), then available, empty territory will remain available, empty territory longer than needed OR be settled by malcontents who may have been happy where they were and were forced to resettle elsewhere, surrounded by state-supported riot officers who force them at spear-point to farm that land and work those mines and be happy about it.

    (I'm not necessarily and universally against that, as it's funny to sometimes conceptualize a slave-dependent expansionist kingdom lorded over by a stressing scholar who just wanted to get some extra Research points going, but it's worth considering.)

    The other end of the spectrum is that if N is large and huge swaths of territory can be settled with impunity due to a meaningless impact to civil unrest due to a lack of Fame, then the code needn't even be there.

    How big is N going to be? If I'm a zero Fame Sorcerer Lord who is looking to expand my territory in order to grab that Gold mine so that I can start getting the income I need to field the army to push my borders through conquest, how worried will I have to be that doing so will create enough unrest in my home city that I won't be able to feed the troops keeping the new colony safe or that the new colony will have so much unrest that they starve to death?

    What are other ways to gain Fame? If I'm a scholarly-obsessed Lord whose only interest in expansion is simply to build extra Research-producing buildings, need I first construct a mighty army to keep the populace happy enough to go to the library? And if I do that, why not use the military to crush my enemies, drive them before me, and hear the lamentations of their significant others?

    Data Needed.

  7. #7
    Archmage of the Inner Ring ampoliros's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    1,662
    What about what was discussed ages ago?

    Cities start with a gather radius of 1. Grow to a radius of 3. Then, certain mid/end game spells/buildings can increase the radius more.

  8. #8
    We've put that idea on the shelf for the moment, ampoliros. I still like it, but we've decided to leave changing a cities borders to magic for now. Even if we were to implement that the fame limitation would still work with it. So, I don't feel it's an either/or situation.
    Everybody needs friends! Aaron's Facebook Page

  9. #9
    Mage of the Inner Tower Endless Rain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    RPG.net
    Posts
    532
    I think that the district method from Endless Legend, if used correctly, could be just what we need. In that game, cities had a gather radius of one, but you could build districts that would make the city larger, and take up extra hexes. Districts also gave more resources on the tiles they were on. This would make it so the city had many more tiles it gathered from. Something else I think would help, if we used this idea, would be if we could merge cities of the same faction that border each other. This would help cut down on city spam a lot, but might have some balance issues.

    P.S. I'd recommend that you play Endless Legend, Aaron, it's quite fun, and it might give you more ideas for WoM.

  10. #10
    That is an interesting idea, but at this point I think it's "expansion fodder".

    And, yes, I do need to play Endless Legend (when I finally get the time, lol).
    Everybody needs friends! Aaron's Facebook Page

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
footer