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Thread: Race & Unit Balance Thread

  1. #21
    Adept Sorcerer
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    Ranged units are overpowered in this game. be it elven archers or skeletal archers. earlier you get them better you will be.

    though there should be early cavalry unit to counter them. though i usually deal ranged units with fire elementals. and later with some other fast units, or spell casters.


    another thing for combat is that it is way too slow. animations are too slow and it takes way too long to play these battles. make a selection for battle board to speed up animations 300%, also make it command multiple units at the same time. ie. ctrl+mouse click to select and then when you order move they move in same formation they were. or in case of ranged units and you want to attack they attack.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by palkkipantteri View Post
    ...
    another thing for combat is that it is way too slow. animations are too slow and it takes way too long to play these battles. make a selection for battle board to speed up animations 300%, also make it command multiple units at the same time. ie. ctrl+mouse click to select and then when you order move they move in same formation they were. or in case of ranged units and you want to attack they attack.
    or a setting to turn off animations would probably help speed things up as well.. probably should put this in the QoL thread

  3. #23
    Ranged units are overpowered in this game. be it elven archers or skeletal archers. earlier you get them better you will be.
    I relied on ranged units one game recently, a single draconian elementalist cam along and wrecked me with his fireball spells. I learned an important lesson that day. You gotta have balance in your armies. And not all ranged are great. Draconian Javelineers are sorry.
    My RPG Design and Theory Blog: http://socratesrpg.blogspot.com/

  4. #24
    Adept Sorcerer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troy_Costisick View Post
    I relied on ranged units one game recently, a single draconian elementalist cam along and wrecked me with his fireball spells. I learned an important lesson that day. You gotta have balance in your armies. And not all ranged are great. Draconian Javelineers are sorry.

    yes, i agree,but if you have cheap ranged units like skeletal archer(80 pop) or elven archer(80 gold?) you can easily spam 10 or so of them. and then kill army that opposes you. For example in my recent game as unhallowed, draconian tracker army(8 to 10) tried to go and invade my cities. I pulled out 8 skeletal archers from my city. they cost me 640 population. That is like 6 turns of pop growth in said city. I killed those trackers with those and one or two summoned fire elementals that kept those trackers to get my skeletal archers too fast. This fight would have been easier with elven archers as they hit more accurately and do more damage than skeletal archers.

    One thing though that really magnifies ranged power(magical or normal) is this current attacker goes first in combat. especially if your opponent uses lots of t1-t2 archers. two elementalist, djinn etc easily kills like 10 of those if they attack. I think solution to this is initiative based system, where units initiative decides when it moves.

  5. #25
    Neophyte Sorcerer
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    So you're saying your tier 1 army of ranged units and two summoned creatures took out an invading army of tier 1/tier 2 units. The point still stands that a stronger unit can lead to a substantially different outcome.

    It's escalation. Ranged units turn low-end melee units into mincemeat, and that's to be expected. It was that way in MoM (granted, not to the same extent it can be here), and it's that way in the real world, too. Overcoming that ranged advantage will require specialist training (higher-level and/or more powerful units, such as the noted Elementalist example), superior tactics, or superior power (spells to disrupt the enemy's capabilities; would your army of Skeletal Archers faired so well against the Draconians if they were led by a Sorcerer Lord who enjoyed casting Guardian Wind or Bone Armor? You'd find your Fire Elementals quite a bit more important then, I suspect).

    Superior tactics is something that we can't do much of, since we don't have things like cover (barring city walls), ammo expense to hang back until the ranged units are out of arrows, or things of that nature. Whether we should or not is an entirely different discussion that's been had. But as much as I was on the bandwagon about the overpoweredness of ranged units in the early game, a few thought experiments proved that it should only be the early game when this is so dominantly true. My advice would be to take advantage of your ...um, advantage? as early and as quickly as you can. If you can dominate the entire planet with four or six archers without ever having a difficult battle in extremely rapid order, then I suspect there can be an examination of whether or not they are overpowered. As it stands, I'm willing to wait and see, and pat my tier 1 and 2 spells on the back if I have to face off against an all-ranged army.

    To your other point, should fast-moving cavalry-type units meant to hunt down enemy archers be available earlier? Perhaps. I don't have enough information to that point as of yet to make an informed judgment.

  6. #26
    Adept Sorcerer
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    Thing is that you can take down elementalist(crappy AI helps here) with 4 skeletal archers(especially if you use freezing, unholy, flaming etc enchantments). same goes for djinni with 6 skeletal archers. you might need more or less. of course it also depends on what level your archers are.


    problem is that not every race has low tier and cheap ranged units. high men have crossbowmen that are on par with elven rangers as tier goes, same goes for draconian javelineer and i guess dwarwen arbalesters too. Maybe MoM like spearmen and bowmen should be the same for every race. Or their equivalent of this. like Orc's have javelineer like early unit.

  7. #27
    Thing is that you can take down elementalist(crappy AI helps here) with 4 skeletal archers(especially if you use freezing, unholy, flaming etc enchantments).
    Or you can enchant your elementalists with Guardian Wind and watch the arrows bounce off.

    problem is that not every race has low tier and cheap ranged units. high men have crossbowmen that are on par with elven rangers as tier goes, same goes for draconian javelineer and i guess dwarwen arbalesters too. Maybe MoM like spearmen and bowmen should be the same for every race. Or their equivalent of this. like Orc's have javelineer like early unit.
    Not every balancing mechanic is on the battleboard. There are strategic advantage and disadvantages for each race too. You gotta examine the whole context IMO.
    My RPG Design and Theory Blog: http://socratesrpg.blogspot.com/

  8. #28
    Mage of the Lesser Tower
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    Question: if there are 4 druids in my Elven Druid unit, and they cast Acid Arrow, do 4 acid arrows fly towards the enemy, or only 1 acid arrow?

    (In D20 rules, there would be 4 acid arrows that each make a ranged touch attack).
    Last edited by Yco; 02-13-2015 at 08:13 AM.

  9. #29
    Adept Sorcerer
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    Troy,
    Yeah i noticed. I have to say that High men are quite balanced. maybe they will get earlier cavalry instead of "mage" unit later. i have not gotten huge werewolf armies against me or anything similar. i am at turn 51 and so far nothing have tried to attack me. It is probably me, but i still believe that AI should be harder, especially neutral and roamers. I am playing level 3 difficulty currently.


    YCO,
    :lol:. 4 Acid arrows. that would one shot every tier one unit, making druid the best low level unit easily. Even at how it is now druids are quite good units. cheap healers and have ability to damage enemies afar.

    I think every spell is a single spell, not multiplies of figure.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by chatdugris View Post
    So, both of my starts (Draconian and High Men) are being wiped out by huge wandering 'neutral' armies larger than my economy could support
    This

    Quote Originally Posted by wyldmage View Post
    But if you look at their other spells, they're useless. But that's a problem with the spells in the game.
    and this are not related to race vs race balance, yet are very similar to my feelings of the early game.

    The symptoms are mentioned above:
    - neutral armies might be too big
    - spells too weak
    - economy can not support even basic army (unless you have gold resource).

    Although the gold production looks similar to MoM (default tax rate here and there) it seems to me the result is slightly worse and this "slightly" becomes a killer, which does not allow you to build army early on.

    On the other hand even low-level spells in MoM were very strong (at least vs single unit), e.g. taking Death you had Black Sleep (insta-death), very cheap Weakness (huge cripple), and several capable summons. Even Life Drain could be dangerous, given undead servants it produced. Taking Life you had very powerful Heroism, very useful Healing and good buff with Holy Armor. These spells could be devastating against early game neutrals.

    I'm not saying the current spells are all weak/crap, but they ARE weaker.

    Combined these two points results in feel of uber neutrals in early game, but from my point of view it is not a matter of unit balancing at all.

    ---------- Post added at 05:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:47 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Happerry View Post
    This might be an artifact of the D&D rulesystem the game is running on, as Crossbows are basically never used, speaking in general, because of how they work making causing them to be less effective then bows. Though if this is happening I'll admit I was hoping that would be 'house ruled' so they actually were worth using.
    I do not know if it fits D20 and game mechanics, but can they be given something like armor piercing? My common sense tells me that crossbowmen are more expensive, have lower RoF, yet they are lightly armored and hit harder.

    Also my common sense tells me that crossbowmen and swordsmen might have some ability because of their regular military training (something about discipline and will or about stamina and/or reflex maybe).

    P.S. Btw, can archer units have benefits from adamantium/mithril/obsidian (rare metal)? Not sure if it is in place now, but at least potentially?
    Last edited by Aleksey; 02-14-2015 at 01:10 PM.

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