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Thread: [Suggestion]

  1. #1
    Sorcerer Morloc's Avatar
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    [Suggestion]

    When a hero levels he's allowed to take on a new trait/ability (every other level I believe). Casters can choose between a trait, or an additional spell (chosen from a randomly selected 4-spell list appropriate to their circle).

    I'd like to suggest that the caster be able to choose both a spell and a trait. As it stands, your caster hero will end up either having diverse spells without the "punch" to cast them, or great spell casting ability, with few spells to choose from.

    Being able to choose a new circle as an ability pick would also be interesting.

    Lastly, if there some technical or balance issue preventing gaining the spell and ability when leveling, at least increase the number of spells to pick from so that the more useful ones become available sooner.


    -Morloc

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Morloc View Post
    I'd like to suggest that the caster be able to choose both a spell and a trait.
    -Morloc
    Unless you do away with Evoker entirely, this seems like it would make already ridiculously-powerful heroes just miniature Sorcerer Lords. For example, last game I played both Simbey and Aledar were doing 165 damage a cast with their Doom Bolts, and each had mana pools of over 160 mana; for obvious reasons, I didn't much use their other spells - but when I did, it was Simbey's Chain Lightning, which was a real crowd thinner. Clearly, I was going the "fewer but stronger" route that time.

    The problem I see with getting spell + trait is that, to be honest, most caster heroes have a "right spell" for most situations. Anyone with Doom Bolt should use that (except against weak enemies when it doesn't much matter); Cirrym should use Psionic Blast until he gets Terror; Aquestrielle should use Ice Storm; the necromancers should use Flay; that Air-circle casting archer should make a Simulacrum of whatever the best unit in her army is. The reason for this is that Evasion and Improved Evasion are fairly prevalent, so spells with reflex saves are unreliable - thus, to optimize damage potential, you need to cast really mostly only one spell, maybe two (interestingly to me, the most spell-diverse champion I've had was Crombie who gets Holy Word, Restore Life, Healing Wind, Disrupt Undead, Heal, and Bless Weapon - all very useful spells, situationally), but you need to cast them hard. I think having a big spell list would result in mostly just ignoring that spell list and going for the optimal spell. Also, it seems like it would basically cause there to be an even greater advantage to the (already much more powerful) caster-type heroes/champions.

    But maybe that's just me. I play with a singular focus to efficiency, and understand if that's not everyone's cup of tea.
    Last edited by OneFiercePuppy; 04-14-2015 at 09:34 PM. Reason: forgot Holy Word; formatting

  3. #3
    Abecedarian Mage nik_lin's Avatar
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    I also find the spellcasting heroes powerful enough as they are. If you are just using their ranged (magical) attacks they are ok. If you cast spells like doom bolt they are strong indeed.

  4. #4
    Mage of the Lesser Tower
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    DoomBolt is OP.

  5. #5
    THE GRAND BACKER zdsdead's Avatar
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    Hero casters are already, really powerful imho, and I agree doombolt can be devastating
    Elder Dragon, Grand Chancellor x 2, Conjurer x 2, and some other type of Backer

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Yco View Post
    DoomBolt is OP.
    I do feel like Doom Bolt should be a little more expensive, but what I think is really OP is Evoker, honestly. The hero can get 5-6 tiers of it, plus you can enchant it on both rings, the weapon, the cape, and the helm(?), so you can easily be doing triple damage with everything. I mean, even insultingly bad spells get pretty decent when you're doing three of it at once for the same price (example: one Chain Lightning that got good rolls killed a full-health red drake, and rolled off to kill all the Nightmares and Hell Hounds in the same fight. Honestly, once I got Simbey to level 19 and fully geared, there was nothing left for my sorcerer lord to do - Simbey facestomped everything for me)

    I would miss the devastation, but I feel like Evoker should be hard capped at 4 stacks, and Evoker on gear absolutely should not stack with trait levels of it. Of course, another way to fix the damage inflation would be to have world features stocked with creatures that are above base level. Imagine taking a look at a "dangerous" rated keep, say, and seeing that there might be clerics, pikemen, crossbowmen, and swordsmen - and then starting the fight to see everything is base level +6 - the swordsmen would have, what, over 150 per quad? The pikemen would be at like 225, the clerics around 160. Then the infusions would really come into their own, and Evoker would go from "that ability I don't pick so I can have a challenge" to "that ability I pick because sometimes WHAT THE &*#%"

    LATE EDIT: Or you could just set the Evoker bonus to 10%, Wastelands. That would do it, too

    Evoker is now a long-view pick on level. You can still get ten stacks of it if you pick it on level and put it on gear, but unless you're going to get that caster hero to max level with Warlord, it's a tough sell. 15% would have been a better value, or a cap on how much it stacks - because right now, there's no value in one level of Evoker as a low-level hero. Which is fine...and makes the Sorclord feel more important than the heroes.

    I hope you have a special "not-Evoker-but-really-Evoker-if-you-know-what-I-mean" trait for the Titans when you bring them out. THEY should feel game-changing, if the design concept for them is still mostly the same.
    Last edited by OneFiercePuppy; 04-18-2015 at 12:51 AM. Reason: forgot things

  7. #7
    Sorcerer Morloc's Avatar
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    Hero casters are only powerful when they have the spells they need. Their ranged attacks are pretty poor. If you end up with poor RNG rolls to see which spells you can get, you put a lot of work into keeping the hero alive only to max him out as mediocre at best. There's no question that if they get all their best choices they become very powerful, it's just a shame that (without loading/reloading) you have little control over their spell path.


    -Morloc

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Morloc View Post
    Hero casters are only powerful when they have the spells they need.
    While true, my point was that most caster heroes start with their best-choice spells; and if they don't, you're only looking for one spell and you have five (six with Warlord) chances to get it. Simbey starts with Doom Bolt; Cirrym (my least-favorite caster hero) starts with Psionic Blast; Aquestrielle starts with Ice Storm; Aledar I think starts with Flame Strike, not Doom Bolt, but even if you don't get Doom Bolt on him, ten tiers of Evoker makes that Flame Strike just as good except against units with Improved Evasion. If your caster heroes are only mediocre, try just stacking Evoker on them until/unless you find their best-choice spell on level. They'll impress you.

  9. #9
    Mage’s Assistant
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    I'm going to vote that the caster heroes are already strong enough that they don't need spell plus ability. They are much closer to being overpowered than underpowered. Even brand new, give them a couple of items with + manna and they more than hold their own.

  10. #10
    Sorcerer Morloc's Avatar
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    Aye, Evoker is generally the best choice, though at the lower levels, mana is an issue unless you want to crank out some gear (how does a level 5 caster have 15 mana?).

    I don't agree though that these heroes are starting with their best spells. Wrack, Incinerating Cloud, Fireball, Sunburst are examples which come to mind of spells I've picked up on heroes which were vastly more useful than their starting spells. You won't necessarily see these unless your picking spells though, and by picking spells you're not picking up the things which will make the spells brutal (i.e. Evoker, Spell Penetration, mana).

    Another solution would be to raise the level cap on the heroes significantly allowing you to eventually flesh them out better. This would also leave an OP hero, but at least you'd need to work for the levels and "OP" is subjective, since by that point in a game you'd probably be able to win by more conventional means.

    -Morloc

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