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Thread: Let's Talk Illegal Immigration

  1. #11
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    Sun power alone can support a worldwide population of I think it was 1 billion. Meaning the planet can support 1 billion people without the need for some other kind of fuel. Really at the end of the day there are way to many of us.

    When JFK was shot there where 2 Billion people on the planet. Now there are 7 Billion. Doesn't take a genius to work out where we are heading.

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by nate25 View Post
    Looks like I'm much more "hard line" than most here.

    I can't speak for Europe, but here in the US, the borders should be closed. Period.

    This is not 1890. We have our labour pool. We don't have decent jobs for those that are here, let alone millions of newcomers. The movement of manufacturing to cheap offshore sites has killed our economy.

    We need to look inward for a period of time to correct the problems HERE before we can try to save the world.

    Don't mean to offend anyone, but the question was asked. I love my country and it is wasting away. Illegal immigration is just one of many of our problems.

    Nate
    I posted a similar thread over at CivFanatics Center (forums for Sid Meier's Civilization series) and was suprised that the vast majority of responses there were from people saying that there should be no borders, that people should be able to migrate wherever they want and whenever they want freely. Some of the socialists said that enforcing borders involves violence against individuals. Others said that true free market capitalism must entail that labor be free to go wherever jobs are even if it means crossing national boundaries and that therefore national boundaries should be disolved. Interesting to see the difference in responses in different gaming forums. I wonder who is "right"?

  3. #13
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    Gary yes great in a utopia which is what Socialism is. However it goes against human nature. Also in the wargame community you wont get many socialists. What I've seen especially the American Wargamers are right wing.

    No borders and people being able to go where they want...hmm so you'll end up with mass migration hugely overpopulated Western Countries and empty India, Africa and all the other countries that have little infrastructure, little manufacturing and even the land can't sustain them. To be honest no borders and saying it's violence against individuals is the ridiculous lft wing or libreral crap that gets spouted and makes me despair. Human Rights is another thing. That was set up as a beacon to attract the communist citizens behind the Iron Curtain to show them how good we are, now it's used and taken way to far to the point where the most heinous of people can hide behind it.

    Thing is I'm not right wing. I'd vote labour here because I hate the middle and upper class leanings of the Tory party and how they only protect the rich and sod everyone else. However when elements of the left wing come out with stupid things like borders are violence against the individual as I said I despair, they just don't live in the real world just as much as the leaders of the Tory party don't either.

  4. #14
    Suicidal Angel Administrator doomtrader's Avatar
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    So nate25, don't you think it would be better if some immigrants work for cheap money in the factories located in USA, instead to move the factories outside?

    I've been in USA ten years ago, and plenty of Americans didn't wanted to work for minimal wage (IIRC it was 5,50 in Colorado), so the students from Europe and Asia took those jobs to earn some money to travel (or just to earn). I do really believe that American economy will collapse without immigrants, especially Mexicans. Who is going to do the dirty job then? Who is going to clean rooms, work in Burger King, repair cars etc. Imagine that the basic salaries will have to be doubled to attract American. The inflation will skyrocket.

    Also another thing is that, if you are closing the borders, you are slowing down. America is a dreamland. It is not so easy like 50 years ago, not to mention 100 years, but still almost everybody has got equal chance. If you are take this opportunity back, you are doomed. Innovation and hard work were those things which has been running America for so many years. Do not copy UK, where 25% (or more) of the economy are financial services. It might sound wonderfull, but in a longer run this will make chaos.

    To sum up: America is wonderful country of great opportunities. Allow all good people to come there and work hard and it will be even greater.

  5. #15
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    It's way more than 25%. Thatchers idea. Funny enough I've sat in the UK when i live din the inner city and would have traded where I lived for a small rural set up in Poland. Poland is a lovely country and somewhere I'd move to if I was on my own with no kids. Also the women. I always imagine them to be blonde and blue eyed and fair of skin sort like a young Meyrl Streep or Galadrial.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by doomtrader View Post
    So nate25, don't you think it would be better if some immigrants work for cheap money in the factories located in USA, instead to move the factories outside?

    I've been in USA ten years ago, and plenty of Americans didn't wanted to work for minimal wage (IIRC it was 5,50 in Colorado), so the students from Europe and Asia took those jobs to earn some money to travel (or just to earn). I do really believe that American economy will collapse without immigrants, especially Mexicans. Who is going to do the dirty job then? Who is going to clean rooms, work in Burger King, repair cars etc. Imagine that the basic salaries will have to be doubled to attract American. The inflation will skyrocket.

    Also another thing is that, if you are closing the borders, you are slowing down. America is a dreamland. It is not so easy like 50 years ago, not to mention 100 years, but still almost everybody has got equal chance. If you are take this opportunity back, you are doomed. Innovation and hard work were those things which has been running America for so many years. Do not copy UK, where 25% (or more) of the economy are financial services. It might sound wonderfull, but in a longer run this will make chaos.

    To sum up: America is wonderful country of great opportunities. Allow all good people to come there and work hard and it will be even greater
    .
    We're talking about two different things here. As it stands right now, if you come here, get a green card, learn a trade, and follow the process, you can become a citizen. I don't have an issue with that. That's the law.

    What I do have an issue with is the type of articles (see OP), designed to illicit sympathy, that the press here circulates to further their agenda. As if it's OK to break the law. While I don't want bad things to happen to the babies, we're blaming the wrong people here for the babies' plight.

    I sound hard. I know it. But we need to fix our problems with the folks we have first before opening the floodgates to the rest of the world.

  7. #17
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    I should say I don't think Gary had an agenda with the OP. Sorry if it may have come across like that.

  8. #18
    No. No agenda. Just trying to get others' views. I'm sort of torn between what to think. OTOH I can see where children of illegals are trapped in a situation not of their own making and they are human beings and they have hopes and fears like anyone else and when they find themselves in a situation where there is no way out I can see where they need to do something. OTOH making them full citizens is sort of rewarding the parents for illegal behavior. It's like a catch 22 situation. What do you do? I find it hard to sympathize with the "no borders" mentality of many over in the CivFanatics Forums. But what do I know? I'm no expert on such matters.

  9. #19
    BTW, I actually take the article in the OP as a bit neutral in its views too. The reporter is simply reporting what she is seeing. Illegals are coming out of the "closet" so to speak and authorities don't seem to know what to do about it. The reporter doesn't recommend what action to take, only the different views of the various sides of the debate. Notice she also reports that some think it may be an open invitation to illegal activity if children of illegals are gien full citizenship. I really think the article is pretty well done. In fact if the article is a little infuriating at times it seems that the reporter has deliberately made it that way to challenge our sensibilities. At least that is my take on the article.

  10. #20
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    I blame the parents.......something thats said all the time these days in the UK. Infact i'd go so far as saying the "I blame it on the parents" is now the official phrase of the 21st century.

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