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Thread: Let's Talk Illegal Immigration

  1. #21
    I'm closer to nate25 on this myself.

    Let's call a spade a spade too: When we talk about illegal immigration in the United States, 85-90% of the problem is from Mexico per se. The author of that column did a nice job of making it sound like it was equally distributed, but it's not the case. Since it's a primarily Mexico issue, this rises to a national security issue. Mexico and Mexican nationals have ZERO rights to set our immigration quotas, dictate who we will and won't allow entrance to and how we do it. When I can dictate how many Guatamelans and Nicaraguans the Mexicans are required to allow into their country, then we'll have something to talk about. By the way, Mexico itself has extremely strict requirements for nationalization and immigration.

    Allowing another single country to self-determine the discussion in the United States is grossly unfair to every other country in the world not named Mexico. Lotteries to allow immigration to people of African descent are hugely oversubscribed for comparatively few slots. Why so few slots? Because the Mexican nationals believe this their birthright. Their version of the reconquista.

    So, I say "good". Let them 'out' themselves. They've had ample opportunity to apply for legal resident status and chosen not to do so. For the 99% of undocumented that AREN'T political refugees, they should be made to comply with our national laws. If that means deportation, so be it. Hasta La Vista.

    I don't agree with the current administration on much. But their crackdown behind the scenes (record numbers of illegal deportees) is something I very much support. You wanna be here? Follow our laws, starting with your presence.

  2. #22
    Ultimately the parents are the ones to blame. It seems they have gotten their children and all the rest of us into a situation where we're not sure what to do to make things right. It makes me a little angry. OTOH, some of these parents are just looking for a better life for themselves and their children, escaping from horrible third world countries. If I were in their shoes I wonder if I would do the same thing. It's nice to live in a "1st world" country. It's a very complicated issue, one where there don't seem to be any easy solutions.

  3. #23
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    There is massive difference between legal and illegal migrants. I do understand that children are innocent victims in all this and I suppose I do think that if they are born in the country they should be allowed to stay however their parents have to leave, so really they don't have an option. Though what i'd like to see is that the child has dual citizenship before the family moves back so when they are older they can move back to the USA or wherever.

    Oh and Mr Chickenboy not sure you've posted in the introduce section, so I shall say your welcomes here. Hello old bean. Great to have you around. Have fun in this den of chat and banter.

  4. #24
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    We're out of time here in the US. I really believe we're near an economic tipping point from which there is no return. We've had our heads buried in the sand far too long.

    We have to do what's right for our country. NOW.

    I'm sorry for the children. I really am. But all illegals must go back to their country of origin.

    Very blunt and cold, but there it is.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonRimmer View Post
    There is massive difference between legal and illegal migrants.
    This reminded me that I needed to touch on the intellectual sophistry of the 'undocumented migrant' or 'undocumented immigrant' label. It's more visceral and has greater emotional punch to refer to them as 'illegal immigrants', so the supporters of illegal immigrants use the more objective or esoteric 'undocumented' label. I do not. They didn't, through some cruel twist of fate, lose their passport in their trousers or have their papers incinerated in a barn fire. They're undocumented only in that they do not have legal documents to be in this country. They are, ipso facto, illegally here.

    In general my sympathy for anyone who breaks the law willingly (sometimes repeatedly) and then decries same law is negligible. Akin to repeated drunk drivers that want to get the law for DUI changed so that they can continue their own behavior.

    So: First you need to go. Then, after you're gone, we can have a national dialogue on whether our internal laws regarding illegal immigration are suitable for our country. Illegals have no place at the table and no rights for negotiation or sympathy.

    This country DOES need legal immigration. We certainly don't want our national identity of a melting pot of cultures to be threatened in the long run. In Minnesota, we have a large Somali and Hmong population. LEGAL immigrants that are doing a good job of melding into the American way of life. They are-after a couple generations-becoming integrated. These people (Hmong and Somali) come from troubled countries or backgrounds. Their trek to come here is heart rending and a tale of being rescued from the abyss. They are proud of their heritage as well as their new country and their new lives. What immigration is supposed to be.

    Here's what immigration is NOT supposed to be: You will take us in whatever numbers we determine. You will not decide that we are too large a body for your immigrant pool. You will not question our presence there, nor will you ask us to leave when we break your laws. Heck, we may even try to vote in your country if you don't check our IDs closely enough. Our national pool supersedes all other cultures, nationalities and motivations that you may wish to allow legalization from other groups. We will come and go freely from your country and we may even subsidize our travel into your country by carrying drugs at the behest of some country's drug cartels. When our population rises to a certain percentage in a given geographical area, we may even carry on school demonstrations, hang the American flag upside down at our school and put it underneath the flag of our country of origin.

    See a difference? Which do you think summarizes the viewpoint of most illegal immigrants?

  6. #26
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    Impressive post.

    I was thinking, that some of North American society is simply doomed. Too many things simply not doing anything long term good for us.

    Too many factors we can't let go of, that don't mix well.

    We want breed for the sake of it.
    We want to live the good life, but pay the lowest price for it.
    Everyone just expects to get a great job.
    We expect those great jobs to make great pay cheques, with all the perks and be for life.
    And we expect our golden years to just be rosy and peachykeen.

    We worship the notion of capitalism though, the ability to make money just because. We want to keep all of our money and not share it.
    Companies though simply don't function in a society that wants all of the above paragraph.
    Comapnies don't exist just so you can have kids.
    It's not about ensuring the worker has the good life.
    It's certainly not about seeing that the worker gets rich and enjoys all the bonuses of a good product.
    And you don't open companies just so you can provide a great pension to every senior that ever worked for you.

    I really hate seeing 'we need immigrants'. Especially when it is all about inflating the work force just so you can milk them for taxes. I don't think immigrants wish to come here to be taxes sources.

    Our greed has made us uninterested in working cheap. Our unions have made us spoiled.
    Our companies have responded by saying good bye and getting it all made offshore in countries where workers are glad just to be able to live another day.
    Those companies try to outdo each other as much as possible, because our population considers price the only thing that matters.
    It has stopped being about quality, it is only about profit.
    We know how people live in the countries where our things are made, and we simply don't care.

    And now we are dealing with people from those countries, breaking into our countries, under the assumption that our countries have some mythical good life.
    The illusion is getting VERY threadbare.
    This balloon is going to go bang soon, and it will not be pretty.
    It will make the Great Depression, the only depression worthy of the term too, look like a walk in the park some day.
    And all that we tell ourselves we have, will just be gone.
    It's going to be very ugly.

    And I don't think I am quite old enough yet, to be too old to be not alive when it happens.
    Please don't go on about how cool it is I like wargames. It gets old.
    Some of my comments are just me parroting his bitching.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joan d'Arc View Post
    Impressive post.




    And now we are dealing with people from those countries, breaking into our countries, under the assumption that our countries have some mythical good life.
    The illusion is getting VERY threadbare.
    This balloon is going to go bang soon, and it will not be pretty.
    It will make the Great Depression, the only depression worthy of the term too, look like a walk in the park some day.
    And all that we tell ourselves we have, will just be gone.
    It's going to be very ugly.

    And I don't think I am quite old enough yet, to be too old to be not alive when it happens.
    I agree with this.

  8. #28
    It's not all that bad vis a vis illegal immigration. The last 3 years have seen a decrease in illegal immigration due mostly to the poor economic environment in this country. American nationals are taking many jobs that were previously relegated to migrant workers of questionable legality. Last year (and early 2012) marked an ebb in Mexican immigration in particular. There may have actually been a net negative Mexican immigration in the first quarter 2012 (!)

    I don't know if this trend is good or bad. On the whole it's a sign that people (American nationals) are desperate for jobs-any jobs will do. Combined with a recent Mexican manufacturing resurgence calling them back to their home country, it may be a good thing on the whole for the immigration argument.

    Don't panic. We'll (probably) be alright, but there are some real economic headwinds and sovereign debt risks afoot no doubt.

  9. #29
    To nate25 and chickenboy, for what it's worth I've been pushing some very hard questions to the leftists in my thread at CivFanatics regarding illegal immigrants. BAsically to see how well they hold water. You can view it here:

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...=462181&page=3

  10. #30
    Arcane Candidate
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joan d'Arc View Post
    Impressive post.

    I was thinking, that some of North American society is simply doomed. Too many things simply not doing anything long term good for us.

    Too many factors we can't let go of, that don't mix well.

    We want breed for the sake of it.
    We want to live the good life, but pay the lowest price for it.
    Everyone just expects to get a great job.
    We expect those great jobs to make great pay cheques, with all the perks and be for life.
    And we expect our golden years to just be rosy and peachykeen.

    We worship the notion of capitalism though, the ability to make money just because. We want to keep all of our money and not share it.
    Companies though simply don't function in a society that wants all of the above paragraph.
    Comapnies don't exist just so you can have kids.
    It's not about ensuring the worker has the good life.
    It's certainly not about seeing that the worker gets rich and enjoys all the bonuses of a good product.
    And you don't open companies just so you can provide a great pension to every senior that ever worked for you.

    I really hate seeing 'we need immigrants'. Especially when it is all about inflating the work force just so you can milk them for taxes. I don't think immigrants wish to come here to be taxes sources.

    Our greed has made us uninterested in working cheap. Our unions have made us spoiled.
    Our companies have responded by saying good bye and getting it all made offshore in countries where workers are glad just to be able to live another day.
    Those companies try to outdo each other as much as possible, because our population considers price the only thing that matters.
    It has stopped being about quality, it is only about profit.
    We know how people live in the countries where our things are made, and we simply don't care.

    And now we are dealing with people from those countries, breaking into our countries, under the assumption that our countries have some mythical good life.
    The illusion is getting VERY threadbare.
    This balloon is going to go bang soon, and it will not be pretty.
    It will make the Great Depression, the only depression worthy of the term too, look like a walk in the park some day.
    And all that we tell ourselves we have, will just be gone.
    It's going to be very ugly.

    And I don't think I am quite old enough yet, to be too old to be not alive when it happens.
    That could very well happen. Sounds so depressing. But I don't see things getting any better, infact I have a hard time beleiving in our government leaders anymore.

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