Originally Posted by Asmodai
In my opinion, that's what Heroes are for. Trying to manually design each individual unit would add complexity to an already complex (d20) system.
Don't get me wrong, I LOVED Alpha Centauri, but their battle mechanics were MUCH simpler than any sort of d20 based system like this game is going with.
Honestly, I'm already intimidated by the ramifications of having a d20 system for every single unit in the game.
OK, custom units are a touch too complex for what we're going for now, lol. However, it could be a real possibility for future updates or DLC. (Depending on the interest level.) All the mechanics will be there, it will just be a matter of creating an interface and calculating costs. We'll just have to see how many people would be interested in it.
As it stands you don't need to be intimidated by D20 in WoM. In most cases you are going to be able to let it do it's thing under the hood and not have to think about it. There will be some surprises for non-D20ers. Some people are going to be shocked the first time they see a wraith "healed" to death. For the most part though you won't be thinking D20, just WoM. You'll get the hang of it in no time
unit customization shouldn't be thrown out. in Fallen Enchantress one of my favorite thing is to create units what I need/want.
it is fun and also a good option when you don't have the needed money for a well-armored spearman (which is the premade unit) you can change it to be less armored and create it cheaper.
there could be units (and not summoned/charmed ones) for example like "Wolvers" which are trained wolves with goblin masters.
in battle they act and seen as two separate units. once the goblins unleash them the wolves rush to the nearest foe and attack them automatically - they couldn't be controlled - but the player still retain control of their masters.
some battle animals/monstrosities could be called back (or even sent against a choosen enemy) to their owners because of strict training.
also it gives flavor to the game if you see the technological advancements on the units as it can be seen in Medieval 2 Total War.
Creating your own units is fun. But creating own army from units (with optional upgrades) and heroes with items is fun too. The difference is when you can creating units you have fun thing immediately. Creating army is usually (but doesn't have to) laborious and time-consuming process.
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We'll keep the point open until we get more feedback. Breaking down the individual units equipment is going to add to dev time. If people are really interested it could make it into the core game. However, it will be easy to add in the future as DLC. That's why I mentioned that option before. Still, we'll see what popular opinion is before we come to a decision.
What made me think of custom units how many options there are for a unit in a D20 based system and I just don't see how they could be represented easily by a small fixed set of units.
For example you'll need units that do bludgeoning damage, piercing damage, and slashing damage to bypass damage resistances.
Are thrown weapons going to be in? They could serve a niche between higher damage dedicated melee units and longer range traditional ranged units (assuming unlimited ammo). I think of dwarves as using a combination of thrown and slow to fire crossbows for ranged combat personally as dwarven archers just seem odd to me.
You'll need ranged units. (archers, crossbowmen, priests, mages)
Mounted units (ranged attack?, charge)
If you have charge you'll want footman that can set vs Charge. (longspear, halberd, for example)
What about reach? (basically melee units that attack from the second rank - think pole arms)
I hope charge, set vs charge, and reach are all in but this adds more and more unit types.
Heck some weapons trip, as do monsters (this is a big thing for wolves for example).
You have units with a single one handed weapon, you could have units that dual wield (maybe that's hero exclusive since it's hard to do), units that have a weapon and shield, units that use two handed weapons.
Not to mention different armors types (meaning light, medium, and heavy not specific armors) effecting speed, cost, time, etc.
I guess I'd feel a little better if I saw a sample faction army list to see how well it covered the bases but at the end of the day I guess I'm just going to have to trust that Wastelands has this stuff covered.
Sample unit lists are coming.
Thrown weapons are in.
There will ranged and mounted units. (Not every faction will have mounted units. What do Draconians ride?)
There will be charge and set versus charge.
I'm leaning away from reach (lol, it's funny when you say it like that). I haven't completely made up my mind yet.
Trip may make the cut.
Duel-wield is probably heroes only territory.
The different armor types along with their different costs, speeds, max dex, etc. are in.
I didn't mean to imply every faction has every one.
For example:
I think of Dwarves as being axe (slashing), pick (piercing), and hammer (bludgeoning) based for melee. (hammer and pick coming from the forge and mine)
I think of them as preferring heavy armor (they get no real benefit from light as their movement rate is 20 no matter what and they don't tend to have high dex)
I think of them as preferring weapon and heavy metal or tower shields.
I think of them as having no mounted units and no naval power. Dwarves are happiest when their feet are planted firmly on the earth (preferably stone) not floating in the water (dwarves sink) and in the air (falling is bad and they are heavy)
To make up for no mounted units they have have units that set vs charge (Halberd?).
For ranged combat I think of them as throwing axes and hammers and using crossbows which makes them comparatively weak in ranged combat but their tower shields provide cover which makes them resistant to ranged attacks. (excluding priests)
Dwarves excel at defense, close quarter combat (urban, caves, etc) and siege.
They are weak at air, navy, arcane magic, and battles in large open fields.
My stereotypical Dwarf unit in D20 would be a lvl 1 warrior armed with a Dwarven Waraxe, Heavy Armor (Splint Mail?), and a Heavy Steel or Tower Shield. Wielding a Dwarven Waraxe one handed (racial trait) gives them one of the most powerful one handed weapons in the game out of the box, with their racial trait they still move 20 in heavy armor (same as everyone who has 30 move normally).
I also think of them as having a rebel berserker faction (those who rebel against the rigid societal structure of a LG society) who don't wear armor or use shields. They tattoo and and pierce themselves get mohawks etc, and charge into battle with no thought of personal safety. With no shield they tend to dual wield axes or carry big two handed greataxes.
I really like the idea of them making clay, stone, and iron golems.
Elves:
I think of them as using spears (piercing), swords (slashing), and quarterstaff (bludgeoning)
I think of them preferring light armor (chain?) as speed and dex are important to them
They can throw spears but prefer bows for ranged attack (composite longbow)
They have both mounted units (composite longbow units as well as lance units) and naval power (swan and dragon themed viking longship style boats)
I think of them as having air power (Pegasus mounted units?)
Elves excel at combat in open fields where they can move around (kite), in forests, and on the sea. They also excel at arcane magic.
They are weak when they can't maneuver (have to hold a static position, ie. defense, close quarter combat, etc.) or have to lay siege.
My stereotypical Elf unit would probably be a lvl 1 warrior armed with a composite longbow and chain armor.
I'm not saying this is how they SHOULD be and I have no idea how balanced this would be but this is what I think about when I think of these factions so having a fair amount of this would make the races more familiar to me.
---------- Post added at 05:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:18 PM ----------
I assume that for simplicity that base units have only one weapon type. For example an elven archer doesn't switch to a sword when you get close to him. If that's the case then reach adds to dense (formation?) fighting by allowing a set of units to attack from the second rank. So you have a rank of guys with say shields and melee weapons up front and then the second rank has reach weapons so both lines get to attack it adds extra depth to combat (pun intended). For that however you pay because reach weapons are all two handed I believe and can't attack adjacent tiles. So if you let the enemy get in close you're in trouble. Also some creatures naturally have reach, like a Fire Giant for example. A unit with reach can attack the fire giant at the same time but without a fire giant would be able to reach a human sized creature before they could fight back due to their long arms.
Trip is an interesting thing to have, I could see it being cut but I hope it isn't.
Dual Wield is not smart from a D20 perspective unless you have the feats. I don't believe warriors get them so base units not having dual wielding makes sense from a D20 perspective. My head agrees that it should be hero only but my heart wants to see dual wielding elves for some reason, rofl.
This is cool, seriously.
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Another option for "reach" weapons is what games often call "first strike"
If the combat is based on D20 (though I know not IDENTICAL) it stands to reason that when a unit first moves adjacent to an enemy the unit not moving gets an "attack of opportunity" against the aggressor. If the moving unit has "reach" however (and the stationary one does not) then it would be able to move adjacent and attack without provoking an attack of opportunity (the defending unit can't reach it!). I really hope "attacks of opportunity" and even flanking are in tacitcal combat.
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