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Thread: Unit Theory

  1. #21
    We haven't completely decided whether or not some units will have a "backup" weapon. However, they probably will. If you get in melee range to a group of crossbowmen they should whip out the short swords.

    We have been playing with the idea of "first strike" (much like MoM had). Working reach in as a take on first strike might be just the thing to do.

  2. #22
    Moderator Asmodai's Avatar
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    Ok back to basics, going back to MoM and looking at the army lists then thinking of D20 this is what I came up with:

    Human - concept is light armor ranged units, medium armor melee units, heavy armor mounted units.

    Warriors have 12 (+1) in all three STR, DEX, CON
    Spearman - leather armor, spear (throw), moves 3
    Swordsman - chainmail, longsword, large steel shield, moves 2
    Pikeman - chainmail, longspear (reach + set), moves 2
    Cavalry - half-plate, lance (charge), heavy warhorse, moves 5
    Bowman - chain shirt, longbow, longsword, moves 3
    Non-warriors
    Priest - chainmail, heavy mace, large steel shield, moves 2
    magician - robe, quarterstaff, magic, moves 3
    paladin - Full Plate, Heavy War Horse, Lance, holy, moves 5

    Elf - concept is light armor ranged AND melee units (offset by higher dex), medium armor mounted units.
    no engineer
    Warriors have 12 (+1) STR, 14 (+2) DEX, 10 (0) CON
    Spearman - leather armor, spear (throw), moves 3
    Swordsman - chain shirt, longsword, large wooden shield, moves 3
    Pole arms - chain shirt, Glaive (reach), moves 3
    Cavalry - breastplate, light war horse, lance (charge), moves 6
    longbowmen - chain shirt, composite longbow, longsword, moves 3
    non-warriors
    magicians - robes, longsword, magic, moves 3
    Replace Elven Lords with Rangers (chain shirt, composite longbow, longsword, moves 3) ranger class instead of warrior
    Pegasi Riders - chain shirt, composite longbow, pegasi (fly), moves 12

    Dwarf (they don't have many units in MoM)
    Warriors have 12 (+1) STR, 10 (0) DEX, 14 (+2) CON
    "Swordsman" - banded/splint armor, dwarven waraxe, large steel shield, moves 2
    Halberdiers - banded/splint armor, Halberd (set, trip), moves 2
    Steam Cannon
    Golem (Stone or Iron depending on which balances better)

    Some ideas:
    "Spearman" - Dwarf version in hide armor with throwing axe or light hammer for throw attacks
    "bowman" - Dwarf version in banded/splint armor, light crossbow, waraxe
    "Priests" - Dwarf version in banded/splint armor, Warhammer, Large steel shield, magic
    no mages or cavalry or ships

    Orc/Goblin
    Goblin warriors have 10 (0) STR, 14 (+2) DEX, and 12 (+1) CON
    Orc warriors have 16 (+3) STR, 12 (+1) DEX, and 12 (+1) CON
    "spearman" - Goblin, leather armor, Javelin (throw - longer range), morningstar moves 3
    "Swordsman" - Orc Swordsman, Falchion, Studded leather, moves 3
    Pole arms - Orc, Studded Leather, Guisarme (reach, trip), moves 3
    Cavalry - Goblin Worg riders (Worgs trip instead of charge), moves 5
    bowman - Orc bowmen, Longbow, Falchion, Studded leather, moves 3
    non-warriors
    Goblin Shaman - 8 (-1) STR, 12 (+1) DEX, 10 (0) CON, 12 WIS (+1), no armor, morningstar, magic
    Ogre - 22 (+6) STR, 10 (0) DEX, 16 (+3) CON, Greatclub (reach - due to size), Hide Armor, moves 3
    Ogre Mage - 22 (+6) STR, 12 (+1) DEX, 18 (+4) CON, 16 (+3) INT, 18 (+4) CHA, Greatsword (reach - due to size), magic (innate + sorcerer), moves 4 (fly)

    Anyway just some starting ideas, rofl

  3. #23
    Good ideas. I'm going to start sharing our "initial lineups" soon. It's all in flux at the moment and we're very open to ideas.

    BTW, I noticed you snuck Orcs in there, lol. (I'm going to do a post about the Goblin faction soon.)

  4. #24
    Moderator Asmodai's Avatar
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    Yes I stuck the Orcs in there, rofl. I wanted a bad faction and the undead work in a completely different way as I understand it (not that I understand what that different way is) so I just chose Orcs both because I like them and they were a faction in MoM. Really though I had hoped they'd work differently as well but this was supposed to be a "back to basics" post so I wanted to do listings in a similar manner to the MoM units. I'd change more, like give Elves Priests and Tower Shields (cover vs ranged and reach) on Dwarves but I was TRYING to be conservative, rofl.

    I folded the gnolls of MoM into the Orcs by including the goblin worg riders (Wolf riders were the Gnoll's only exclusive unit in MoM but goblin Worg riders are more D20 lore friendly).
    Likewise the "Elven Lord" isn't particularly D20 Lore friendly but Elven Rangers are so folding the Nomad's Rangers into the Elves gets one of their three exclusive units into my list without adding a whole new army.
    If I had more army slots I'd want to add Orc Barbarians to the Orc list replacing the MoM Barbarian faction exclusive Berzerkers as well. (Barbarian is a D20 Orc's favored class after all)
    I'd also like to add the horsebowmen to the Elves lineup if a slot existed.
    Wyverns and Griffons (maybe these go to elves as well?) I hope make the game as non-faction aligned monsters instead of being on army lists like in MoM.

    Looking down the MoM army lists I kind of feel you can merge these:
    Barbarians, Gnolls, and Orcs become Goblin/Orcs
    Halflings I'd just as soon drop, rofl... never been a fan
    High Elves and Nomads merge to become "Elves" which encompass High/Gray/Wood elves from D20
    I'm for merging Lizardman with Draconians but I'd prefer that in a DLC as well though I believe I'm outvoted there, rofl. Personally I'd rather see D20 Dark Elves before the Reptilian races with Driders for cavalry and such but even then I could see that in a DLC.
    High Men become Human
    Dwarves stay Dwarves, rofl
    Beastman and Trolls from MoM seem more like their exclusive units should just be non-faction aligned monsters to me
    I'd like to see the MoM Klackon faction become D20 Formians but I'd rather not delay the core game for it, I'd rather that come in a DLC

  5. #25
    At this early stage in concept creation I'm interested in what sort of abilities all units could possibly have and then deciding which races have what specific units with what abilities.

    Some general ideas:

    Missiles – Melee missiles. Everything from giants hurling boulders to archers.
    Flight - Can flying units be "grounded" for duration of a battle by missiles or certain spells?
    First Strike / Reach - It's a very simply mechanic that makes for really interesting strategies. I really like the merged idea mentioned above.
    Flanking - Same rationale as first strike.
    Charging – A nice mechanic to make large units (behemoths) or mounted units a little more powerful against hordes.
    Elemental attacks - fire breath, chilling touch, lightning breath, etc.
    Life drain - either just draining opponents life or in more powerful units actually stealing life to heal themselves. Vampires, ghouls.
    Caster - Either a magic missile attack of varied strength or even being able to cast a limited book of combat spells. Wizard units, preists, etc.
    Regeneration - whether this will just mean hit points per turn or actually bring the unit back from the dead in the case of a victory like MoM is debatable. Trolls, maybe a Salamander unit for fire/draconians.
    Attack resistances – Higher level draconians are resistant to fire, etc.
    Attack immunities – Fire elemental is immune to fire, etc.
    Attribute Bonuses - standard +x to attack, dodge, etc.
    Infection - for undead, whether an enemy comes back to join the horde
    Stealth - limited invisibility for something like a Ranger unit or a sylvan unit in forest terrain, etc. Maybe also includes units that can burrow.
    Invisibility – More powerful version of stealth. For ghosts or air elementals.
    Teleporting – Jump around the battle map.
    Stoning / Paralysis / Sleep – Could be from poison units (giant spiders) or magic like a Medusa.
    Pathfinding – Fast movement in world map
    Haste / Initiative bonus – Bonus movement in battle.
    Cause Fear – Dragon’s, Liches. A good mechanic for allowing a physically weak high level unit to take on hordes of low level guys.
    Rampage / Berserking – Trade a loss of control and/or lower defense for an attack bonus.
    Reinforce / Support / Inspire – Give a bonus to other allied units in battle
    Mind Control / Hypnosis - Make a unit switch sides? Obviously attainable only at high levels.
    Last edited by vecna; 02-23-2013 at 03:42 PM.

  6. #26
    You've got some very good ideas and most (if not all) of those are going to be in WoM. We're pulling special abilities from D20. You'll find that most of your suggestions fall right in line with it

  7. #27
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    Just a thought about engineers: they should be capable of some advanced stuff as well - which, by the way, could also be achieved with certain spells, but if a player simply does not have access to that spell category or just wants to focus his mana on other, more important issues, then he could also do it with engineers:

    - Planting forests: These could start as "new forests", then with time grow to normal forests, and with even more time to "ancient forest" (a'la Civ4 mod FFH2) (Even without engineers, elves should be able to do this with priests/druids/shamans etc. as well.)
    - Planting gardens: Similar to farm/irrigation, but producing less food - but making inhabitants of the city it belongs to healthier and happier. Should also be available to elves.
    - Digging canals ("rivers")/expanding lakes/seas. New stretches of rivers could be dug to existing rivers or started from lakes/seas and even joined with others, or existing lakes/seas could be expanded by creating new water tiles from land tiles. This could also affect terrain (desert could have a chance of becoming plains if a river is ran through them, for example).
    - Cutting rivers. IF (and ONLY IF) a river forks two ways at a point, then one of them could be cut off. (See below, why this might be important.) Cut rivers can of course be rejoined by the above method.
    - Draining swamps. Speaks for itself.
    - Leveling mountains, leveling/raising hills. Raising mountains without magic, by sheer manual labor would of course be quite unrealistic, but hills might still be doable. And though raising mountains is unlikely, existing mountains might be chipped away with (MUCH) time and effort. However, this could also add to the production of a nearby city while the mountain leveling is in progress. (Leveling hills would not result in such production bonus.)
    - Constructing observation towers: these would simply expand greatly the line of sight of any unit stationed in it.
    - Constructing fortresses: a'la Civ.
    - Constructing traps: rigging tiles with invisible-to-normal units (though of course spotable in different ways) traps, that could damage or hinder units carelessly treading on it.

    Now as to why cutting rivers off might be important: IF a distinction is made between saltwater (seas) and fresh water (rivers, lakes), then imagine the following scenario: a river runs through your territory and over into that of the enemy, reaching the sea there. The enemy, just like you, irrigates his fields from the river. Now what would happen if that river would have a fork in your territory, so you could cut the one that leads to your enemy? Well, with its supply of fresh water cut, it would become an extension of the sea and thus become salty too - making it unsuitable for irrigation, and your enemy is now facing a serious problem with regard to his farms/irrigated areas.
    Last edited by Nephryte; 04-28-2013 at 08:21 PM.

  8. #28
    Interesting points... we must contemplate this... planting forests... most interesting...

  9. #29
    Archmage of the Central Tower Happerry's Avatar
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    Sounds to complicated and civilization like for me. Forests take a long time to grow in real life. If you want to change the landscape enough that it is noticeable on a strategic scale, that's whatmagic is for.

    Traps just sound annoying, honestly, and observation towers sounds like something that should be built into forts, not separate from them.

  10. #30
    I like the idea of elvish druid units being able to plant forests or turn a wasteland/desert into a grassland. If Dark Elves make it in, maybe they can change grasslands into swamps and get a bonus from that?

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