View Poll Results: Mixed Population in cities

Voters
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  • Mixed Population - yes

    21 41.18%
  • don´t care

    3 5.88%
  • Only one race per city - no

    27 52.94%
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Thread: Mixed Population in Cities

  1. #1

    Question Mixed Population in Cities

    I am not shure if this post is well placed in the Sub-Forum Factions.
    And
    I am not shure if the idea of mixed population is already implemented
    but
    I think it is worth while to ask the community if they like this feature.
    I used this feature in Master of Orion 2 a lot which boosted the planet
    performance. What do you think of it?
    Last edited by Teppic; 07-21-2013 at 01:05 AM.

  2. #2
    no need to add seperate numbers to keep track of non native city population (like of elves, orcs, undead and similar in human city), why to include it and what effect to add from that?
    ability like age of wonders to transform city of one race to city of other kind if enogh refugies of that kind in city? production bonus thats already included from size of whole city? if enough dwarwes in city taht city get 2x benefits from map resources like gold,mana crystal and similar or ability to recrut low level to mid of that races kind if enough in city?

    not sure but benefits of gained from keepeng track of minority races in city that i can think of are supposed to be in already or little out of place.

    maybe best if someone who is going to vote yes also say some idea to what are bonuses of having this minorities mechanicly, like elves in human city specificly tracked instead of forgoten only in lore mentiond some elves live in human city?

    ---------- Post added at 11:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:51 AM ----------

    oh, as idea of out of place idea (ok, thats understatemant, silly/fun/crazy) as bonus to having those minorities (well city is called human city since its founded and populatet mostly by human and similar examples) add as in red alert 2 where allies spy get in allies tech center player get teleporting/timetraveling commando and from soviet tech center psy commando (mindcontroling version), so in WoM version:

    human city with elves population (and other way) have some half-human, half-elves units, orc city with human population gets human barbarians and shamans (or whatever is idea with orcs), elves in undead city add some special kinds of undead (well in dragon age dark spawns blood transforms in humanoid races in very diffrent monsters, but exxample maybe out of place).

    i still vote no, but if vote is in the end to yes, include it, than maybe best to add it as dlc that increase culture and economics theme, or factions theme dlc(when races are split in few kinds like when elves get choiseces of general, high and wood elves)

  3. #3
    In Master of Orion2 the population points of one race took their bonuses with them to their place of habitation:
    The industrious klackons produced more "hammers" and food than the other races, while other ones where
    better in producing taxes or science/=>magic (as one elve pop in MoM produced 1/2 magic).
    First I would not pledge to have mixed cultures as halve men+halve elves.
    A big bonus was that you could swap population around and why not allow migration to a game with cities?
    Migration was always important to cities. Places where war was normal caused people to flock to more
    peaceful places. When you have a multi-race empire and war on one border (where mainly one race lives)
    some of these would leave these spaces to other spaces (where other races are the main population).
    Empires on earth tend to have mixed popultions in their cities...
    Last edited by Teppic; 07-17-2013 at 12:11 PM.

  4. #4
    Caster of the Inner Tower
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    I would say yes if it has some interesting gameplay behind it, with both positive effects (if a race is good at farming and another at production, putting the farmers to farming and the producer to production allows to optimize your output) and negative effects (increase unrest for some race combinations, ...).

    But it'll probably require a lot of game design, code, UI stuff, play testing, ... and I'm not sure it's worth it.

  5. #5
    maybe it is not as hard as you think:
    The basis of this programming is already in Master of Orion2 and as you can read at
    http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...x-fantasy-game :
    "George Edward Purdy has accepted the position of Creative Director for Worlds of Magic.
    George is known for his fantastic character work on both Master of Magic and Master of Orion."
    he might have still some knowledge on the programming.
    (you can look at MoOrion2 and see how it is solved there)
    An other game where the developing team might get some inspiration on migration
    is from the paradox production "victoria2".
    But i think migration is a DLC and is not high priority
    as this game focus on magic
    but
    in my opinion a must-have option a player should be capable to choose if
    this game wands to reflect not only nice graphic make up and magic enhancement of MoM.
    (If the player is capable of choosing this option
    it will also help him at start not to be confronted with to many features
    whereas
    4x cracks will miss some features they know from other games)

  6. #6
    Archmage of the Inner Ring ampoliros's Avatar
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    My vote would be Yes, but in a DLC pack. In MoO2 all the buildings were the same, so migrating population was not a big deal. If you remember in MoO1 there was not any population mixing, it was all or nothing. WoM races will have unique buildings. Pop mixing will be problematic, especially if you do a complete transformation of e.g. putting all Dwarves in what started as a High Men city. (Something I did in MoO2 all the time.)

    So for this poll, my vote is No. It'll take some crazy new game mechanics to implement.

  7. #7
    As we can see at moment 8 no and 2 yes.
    Not a core problem than. DLC.
    Maybe i have to stress this thematic a bit more and make some more suggestions for
    implentation. Hopefully this encourages more people to make up their mind
    (and hopefully not the other way around *g)

    Mixed Cities AND Migration would be a new asset to 4x turn-based games of
    this style (as the paradox games have also turn which are very short ones).
    I already saw migration in Civilization 3 (2?) done by the game and not only
    by the opponents -> your cities were affected when you had not enough food
    and later when culture or neighbouring cities was higher.
    This was droped. Sadly.
    In Master of Orion 3, more a simulation than a game, it was a part of the
    program. You could even encourage population to settle on scarcly colonized
    planets via a Button "encourage migration". Different beings with different
    needs for terraforming were in conflict. A colony was never "only a human or klackon colony".
    This would be a really static view on a city or a planet.

    As mentionend cities in real empires on earth were never pure "ottoman", "english" or
    "french". They all had minorites of other nations and still have.
    Wars or threads tended to push them out and the possiblity of a better life
    (in the americas or today in europe or australia) pulled the towards other places.
    I would think in game in which magic and undead are real
    people would think a lot of a possible life in countries without having warmonging wizards
    (or this could be their "finest hour") as their ruler.

    For this game there is first the problem is
    how to implement the construction of ground units in these mixed cities:

    Every man/woman can grab a spear and defend his city, therefore
    low tech units should be build in every city with their population.
    A nice pull down menu from which you can choose the race to take the spears or bows.

    For high-end units only certain amount of inhabitants should be nessescary to
    erect some buildings and units. The possiblity to swap population around through force or nices
    assets opens the possiblity to have cities which have a late-game buiding in a city only
    scarcly populated by the needed population. These late-game units normally have a higher
    construction cost. A dislocation of people called to arms for these "late-game-units"
    could elevate the construction price further and even higher if there is not enough population
    in the hole empire to build this unit.
    The more inhabitants of the needed race for a unit are available the lower the costs of a unit
    as more inhabitans are eager to engage themselves in the military. Therefore it could be
    clever to have two races in city but the costs for high-level ground units in "multi-culture"
    cities would be to high to be attractive (and as the game has no multi-race units
    implemented, yet *g - it would not be too useful for military meenings).

    Construction of buidings:
    As for units construction the production cost of buildungs should become higher if there are
    not enough inhabitants in the city. Therefore we could expoit pops to move them around and
    to erect buildings on a cheaper basis. But what happens if there are not inhabitants around
    to these structures to maintain them? It becomes more costly as there are not enough artisans
    around so that the needed replacement material has to be imported (and these greedy artisans
    wand to have more money for their work! ;-)
    Too many different buildings will be too costly.

    Whereas for buisness and research it should be very good to have different races in a city
    as inhabitans of different cultures work in special economic niches and have a good
    global network. (Istanbul in the 16th century was bigger, healthier and richer than most
    other cities in europe and grew from only 45k in 1453 to 200k in 1500 and 600k in 1550!
    in only 100 years =>migration? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul#Demographics )
    This was long before industrialization...

    Popultion growth.
    Tell me do you really think people will have more children when there is MORE then enough food?
    No. People in rich countries have LESS children. Therefore nutrition and pop growth is
    correlated but not like it was in MoM. Ok - no food - no growth-
    there is no need for discussion... mhh living ones converted into undead inhabitants? (as in MoO3)

    A high population can have more children than a small one, therefore bigger cities should grow
    faster, whereas smaller ones slower (without migration). Does these popultation interbreed?
    In Master of Orion 2&3 they do not and i think this is an acceptable stop in approaching
    the reality (in a universe with magic! :-)
    The dominant population should have a higher percentage of getting the pop growth.

    What about some BONUSES of these different pops?
    In MoM there were only Workers and Artisans (and rebellious pops), all city enviroment was used
    and provided food or production bonuses and some others like mana. Certain races had better
    workers (halfings) other better artisans (dwarfs).
    I suggest these bonuses still stick to these pops
    and should not affect the others as it is in colonization.
    Woah! Does he wants now different pops with professions (carpenter, farmer, fisher etc.?)
    Well could be nice but a bit to much mirco management than - a DLC for DLC ?

    If WoM sticks to the MoM-System:
    I imagine it like this: every pop with its bonuses can be sorted to the workers or to the artisans.
    Arisans produce more production than workers. Workers produce food and a smaller amount
    of production. The player can choose which pop is a worker and which a artisan. The Player
    can not interfere with the rebellious pops. Who is rebellious? Normally rebellious pops have
    a cause: War, bad nutrition and high taxes, events as religious turmoils...
    War = Lost sons and daughters on the battlefields or of cities
    ransacked inhabited with a race majority (by you/forces of the empire)
    Bad nutrition = affects everybody alike
    as undead are special and have no morale i would be rather impressed if someone wands to implement
    rebellious undead pops.

    If we start to manage land tiles as in Civilization 1-5
    i suggest the player can sort his pops into workers and artisans as before and then
    the workers can be placed on the land tiles. Artisans and REbels would be treates as specialists in the
    Civ counterpart. As in colonization every pop with bonuses is treated differently
    (maybe showing himself as a farmer or fisher as in colonization or only his head as in
    civilization 3?4?. All pops without land tile bonus will treated as normal.

    If we wand to simplify this a bit - we just differenciate between the tiles and the major occupation:
    For example: Lakes and See: Good Fishers and normal fishers using symbols like a fishing rod and
    for the special one with a small star beside the symbol.
    Woods: Showing an axe and a spear; open ground: a plow, hills: a shovel or another mining tool etc.

    I hope my suggestion are a bit more concrete now and the community
    can see what i had in mind. i hope the references to other 4x games will help
    and give some other inspirations to our developers how to write these programm lines
    if they should wand to implement it.

    hope you liked some idea and ignored my bad Orthographie
    Last edited by Teppic; 07-19-2013 at 06:59 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Teppic View Post
    Popultion growth.
    Tell me do you really think people will have more children when there is MORE then enough food?
    No. People in rich countries have LESS children. Therefore nutrition and pop growth is
    correlated but not like it was in MoM. Ok - no food - no growth-
    there is no need for discussion... mhh living ones converted into undead inhabitants? (as in MoO3)
    It's a bit more complicated than that, actually. The reason for less children in more developed nations is that, relatively speaking, children are actually substantially more expensive in developed nations than developing ones (cost of education, cost of living space that is often MUCH higher a proportion of income in developed nations (partially as a result of overpopulation), cost of food that tends to be relatively static in terms of proportion of average income, opportunity cost spending time looking after a child rather than working, where in agricultural societies a child can actually become an economic asset as a source of unpaid labour while still relatively young). Without the other trappings of modern developed nations (particularly education and career opportunities for women), all else being equal greater availability of food will lead to more children.

    More significantly, though, most 4X fantasy games actually occur across a ridiculously short period for births to generate the observed population growth. While it's not typical, for instance, I've had a Master of Magic game that I blitzed through in about a decade, and it's probably not unreasonable to expect a typical game to last no more than a couple of human generations (and less than one elven generation). For such growth rates to be realistic, there seems instead to be an implicit assumption that the majority of the population of each race is actually outside the cities, and the observed growth is the rate of new citizens migrating towards the city in hope of a better life. And in the agricultural economies that most fantasy societies are based on, one of the strongest incentives to resettle is the availability of unclaimed, arable land in a secured location - which a city with a high maximum population and low current population represents.

  9. #9
    Archmage of the Outer Ring jamoecw's Avatar
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    there was some talk about having some mixed race buildings for one race that exists within the empire mainly made up from another race (like a half elven building or half dwarf building), which is a good idea, but as far as mixing races within a city that adds a level of complexity (if done right) that most wouldn't want, or it could be something as simple as full pop points of different races that don't have any other mechanics (which is lame).

    before i see different races, i'd like to see race specific political parties that affect things in the city and maybe across your empire, and before that i'd like to see mixed culture buildings for mixed culture empires. so it isn't so much as no as it is 'low on the totem pole.'

  10. #10
    I doubt this idea will be workable. At least not right away.
    My RPG Design and Theory Blog: http://socratesrpg.blogspot.com/

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