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Thread: Artifacts of Power

  1. #41
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    ^^ this guy above me knows his stuff :L that pretty much explained everything for me xD I just wanna name all my hammers "Smashy Smashy"
    Limit of the thousands hands, respectful hands, unable to touch the darkness. Shooting hands unable to reflect the blue sky. The road that basks in light, the wind that ignited the embers, time that gathers when both are together, there is no need to be hesitant, obey my orders. Light bullets, eight bodies, nine items, book of heaven, diseased treasure, great wheel, grey fortress tower. Aim far away, scatter brightly and cleanly when fired

  2. #42
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    Question! are we gonna have not just warrior stuff like armour and the like, are we going to be having other items, like Amplificae which add too a magicians power, like say something that doesn't confer any bonus' to a unit but the unit has to carry it into a city and then that artifiact confers bonus' to the city or owner of said city like say "Orb Of Everlasting Flame" adds a permanent +1 to Fire Orb spells e.g allows you to access +1 tier spells for as long as that orb is within a city you control. And then perhaps you can Trade said orb for gold and stuff I think that'd be pretty neat, I always see Trade undervalued in these types of games and i'd like to see some properly heavy diplomatic trading going on can we also craft Staves for our sorcerers and such? like Staff Of Water or Staff of Mana etc?
    Limit of the thousands hands, respectful hands, unable to touch the darkness. Shooting hands unable to reflect the blue sky. The road that basks in light, the wind that ignited the embers, time that gathers when both are together, there is no need to be hesitant, obey my orders. Light bullets, eight bodies, nine items, book of heaven, diseased treasure, great wheel, grey fortress tower. Aim far away, scatter brightly and cleanly when fired

  3. #43
    James: Certain items can grant certain feats. Expect all kinds of items from swords to bracers of protection to staffs. There will be items for everyone

    Larry: Great concepts! I don't have time to really give you a full blown “Aaron answer” at the moment, but I like the way you're thinking.

  4. #44
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    Why not throw in some attachable wings as well just to shake things up? :P
    Limit of the thousands hands, respectful hands, unable to touch the darkness. Shooting hands unable to reflect the blue sky. The road that basks in light, the wind that ignited the embers, time that gathers when both are together, there is no need to be hesitant, obey my orders. Light bullets, eight bodies, nine items, book of heaven, diseased treasure, great wheel, grey fortress tower. Aim far away, scatter brightly and cleanly when fired

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiavals View Post
    I think of that MOM has had the best artifact system in any game I've seen yet. And that is simply because the items truly feel powerful if they are powerful. The proper item can make an okay hero almost unbeatable in MOM, and that's great. I much prefer to feel like Sauron when he's making the One Ring, rather than a regular D&D wizard who makes a useless +3 sword that doesn't really make a difference. And since MOM items could be so powerful, the slots had to be limited so things wouldn't get absurd.
    In short: I'd rather have a few really powerful items than a thousand trash items like in d20.
    +1

    Also it seems like everyone's in agreement about the item forge concept.. I think it would make sense though if you are creating an artifact for it to take up a certain portion of your wizards power.. In reality it is you, the wizard, who is making the effort.. You're not going to delegate it to your lackeys lol. It also adds to the effort --> reward factor.. Which would be lessened if you could just churn out artifacts through production.. Maybe add artifact creation to the spell/mana/research?

  6. #46
    Yea... I like the attachable wings. Great idea really. Puts a smile on my face.

    Torin, I'm not sure I follow. Can you explain? Are you saying it should be a forth area to spend mana per turn on?

    The result being:
    Store Mana
    Increase Casting Skill
    Research New Spells
    Create Artifacts

    You would spend your mana income between those four elements?

  7. #47
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    Sounds like a good idea, since as was said, in MOM you wouldn't really create artifacts or enchant items in the beginning due to their massively long casting time compared to other stuff(later as your casting skill is higher, you might). The ability to both make artifacts and cast spells at the same turn would sure be nice.

  8. #48
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    Yes that is what I was saying. If you have a build que for your artifacts and just churn them out from the very start of the game at a fixed rate of production (a rate that would increase as your wizard becomes more powerfull as the game moves on, of course, but "fixed nontheless) it will take the some of the wow factor when creating artifacts. In fact it will take the "arificer" play style virtually out of the game because everyone will always be creating artifacts at all times at the same rate with no drawback whatsoever. It should be a concerted decision to be an arificer.. And it should take a certain level of sacrifice on the wizards behalf to create an artifact and should be met with equal reward.. Obviously no one liked the fact that creating a powerfull artifact tied up all of your spell casting ability for such a long time but you have to admit it was pretty sweet after x amount of turns when you created that epic +6 +6 +6 long sword or what have you. It was rewarding because you had to make the sacrifice. If no there is no drawback to creating an artifact they will be taken for granted and it will take some of the "epicness" out of epic artifacts. Adding "create artifact" to the ways you allocate your mana spent per turn along with spell/mana/research would be one way to balance this out. That is.. striking a balance between creating an artifact completely tying up your spell casting ability for a very long time and the other extreme that creating an artifact happens with no recourse... I'd love to hear if anyone has any other ideas. Perhaps when you are creating an artifact your spell casting ability is only at 50%?

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torin View Post
    Adding "create artifact" to the ways you allocate your mana spent per turn along with spell/mana/research would be one way to balance this out. That is.. striking a balance between creating an artifact completely tying up your spell casting ability for a very long time and the other extreme that creating an artifact happens with no recourse... I'd love to hear if anyone has any other ideas. Perhaps when you are creating an artifact your spell casting ability is only at 50%?



    I see in my example I forgot to include "We would still pay the mana cost for the item that we create." Obviously we can't create something out of nothing, even "magic" somethings. Items will cost mana, possibly other materials for specific items or particular abilities/enchantments.

    Item Creation in MoM was fantastic, imo the best system of its kind to date. However, there are a few reasons why in my mind the item creation needed a little tweaking, perhaps adding even more depth:

    1) It seems we may have more hero slots than in MoM; more than 6.
    2) There may be more items slots per hero/champion. In MoM there were 3 per character; it could be up to 8 in WoM (probably somewhere between 3-8 based on forum discussion/feedback, play-testing will tell...).
    3) Let's take a conservative approach and say there will only be 6 hero slots, and each will have 5 slots. That's 30 items to fully deck out your heroes. Obviously you can find some in lairs/temples/nodes/possibly off other heroes, etc... Even so, filling in the slots with items that you create (in the case of making "Artificier" a play-style), will take a lot of turns and mana. It is resource intensive.
    4) I, for one, felt splitting your magic power income into 3 separate categories Mana/Research/Casting Skill was more than enough diversity/depth. You wanted/needed all three, and micro managing the inputs wasn't just fun, it was a cool way to shape your game.
    5) Casting skill took a long time to grow powerful enough to make a real difference with creating artifacts. The formula, if I remember correctly, is that you had to double your current skill to go up by 1 point. If we had 50 casting skill, we had to devote 100 power base to get to 51 casting skill. Assuming WoM uses a similar formula it seems casting skill will not be able to keep up for the demand of items.


    Sure, item creation could be handled by something like casting skill or half of casting skill. However for "story" reasons, casting skill should be for casting spells. If we want to create a system that still allows us to cast spells while creating artifacts (and that seems to be the general consensus), I feel we'd need it to not be tied to casting skill.
    Our magical power (or power base) felt like it was a good fit, especially since it can change with other events in the world, such as node captures, population growth, buildings that are built/destroyed. I may be wrong, play-testing will reveal what makes sense.



    That being said, I'd like to see more depth in the item creation by having the ability to make a "down payment" of mana towards the item.** This would be another way to balance the time sink, regardless of what system is ultimately used.



    For example, let us use this Mithril Battleaxe in my previous post, let us say it cost 5000 mana to craft. Lets also say that our magical power is 200. It would take 25 turns to create this item. However, we also have 5000 mana, and lets put a cap on the down payment of 20% (maybe a higher % for an Artificer). So we can put 1000 mana into the item now, and it would only take 20 turns to make the item. It seems worth the tradeoff, since it isn't going to kill us with mana; so we might choose to do the "down payment". We can also use the remaining mana for other spells if we see an army approaching or etc...

    With the same scenario, lets say we only had 1500 mana. We are crafting the same weapon, and because 1000 mana is most of what we have we may chose not to do the down payment. We may need that mana in a battle; or may need to summon a Shadow Demon, or whatever.


    Lets say that we are creating an item like above that cost 5000 mana and we have a magical power of 200, and a casting skill of 100. Lets assume that we have 50 of our power base devoted to increasing casting skill, and that we didn't do a down payment.
    The item would take 50 turns (assuming we don't increase our casting skill. It is too late for me to do the math to calculate out the actual number of turns!)
    The item would take 25 turns to create using the magical power method.
    Then we capture/meld with a node that is worth 50 "magical power" points. Lets put all that new power into improving casting skill. It will take 2 turns (using MoM's formula to increase casting skill) to increase casting skill to 101. It would then take 3 turns to increase it to 102. So in 5 turns we can dedicate another 2 casting skill towards the item. Not a significant difference, even over 50 turns.
    Using magical power, instead of having to wait several turns for our casting skill to go up a few points, we see an immediate 5 turns shorter creation time.



    **Obviously you could do this in a "casting" system as well, to reduce the number of turns it takes to create the item.



    I'm now too tired to write more, so I'll revisit this tomorrow after reading your thoughts.

  10. #50
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    Larry:

    Definitely liking the mechanics you're suggesting.. I agree with you actually about not adding artifact creation to the Skill/Research/Mana.. I was just throwing some ideas out there.. thinking out loud

    Anyway sorry again for not being clear.. what I meant when I said that perhaps when you are creating an artifact your spell casting ability is only 50%.. was that your ability to cast other spells is decreased while you are creating an artifact.. So if your skill is 100... and you choose to forge an artifact... You're effective skill level for casting other spells would be 50.

    Of course that doesn't contradict what you were saying about the speed of creating an artifact being dependent on your total magical power instead of your skill level.. I think that's definitely worth considering..

    I like the idea about a downpayment.. alternatively the downpayment could be a percentage of the total..

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