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Thread: You Need A Hero?

  1. #11
    Mage’s Assistant
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Why becoming a hero should consume a unit? Unit is 6 soldier, right? And if soldiers die in combat they reborn after some time. Of course if unit is one soldier or monster this is another story.
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  2. #12
    Moderator Asmodai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Fredericksburg, VA (USA)
    Having the unit consumed doesn't make a lot of sense to me either. Nor does limiting it to only ever generate one hero. I mean each Legion of the Roman Empire probably generated more than one cool hero. The chance should be very small though so the odds of one unit doing it more than once is pretty small and if it still crops up maybe even a cooldown of some sort. Perhaps even the Level 5 unit drops down to level 4 and has to re-level to 5. This would make sense because it got weaker when it's great leader left to become a Hero of the Empire. I do like the idea of limiting the chance further by who the opponent was and what the unit did though. I mean a super level 5 unit wiping the floor with a chain a weak level 1 units might not have a chance to generate a hero, likewise if the unit just stayed in the back and never did anything then it wouldn't generate a hero either.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
    I like the idea of possibly promoting an elite unit into a hero. However, it does raise another question. Do we want random heroes or heroes that are set? Random heroes make for a lot of pleasant surprises, but set heroes are more flavorful. Think of Mystic-X or Torin from MoM. You don't get things like that with random heroes.
    I'd say both, I like static heroes and random ones as well.

  4. #14
    Mage’s Assistant
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    BTW, if we are talking about "hero", I would like to see real HERO, no just plain "chassis" which you must equip and level up hundreds times to made him better than standard unit. I want to see heros out of the box, with special skills or high attribute or something unique.
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  5. #15
    Champions are going to be HEROes out of the box, lol. Your basic heroes aren't going to be bad, they probably won't be great when you first get them, but they won't be terrible.

    I'm still musing over the unit to hero to champion promotion thing as well.

    Either way, when you get your hands on a champion you'll have some power in your corner.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Portland, OR
    If you're going to implement a super-powered champion, can we have the ability for them to revolt and splinter your territory given the right circumstances? Making a champion brings great power both for the wizard and the hero, after all.

  7. #17
    That is a cool idea! Give the champions some "loyalty" factor where they might just betray you. Into the "think" pile it goes.

  8. #18
    If you do decide to go with the loyalty idea, I can see where you could tie it into lots of other kinds of systems we've talked about recently.

    Charm spells or diplomacy: Loyalty rating may affect the ability of unit to be charmed, or the ability/cost at which a hero is willing to turn on their former leader. This would also be a great feature for players who are trying to compete with an enemy without actually declaring war (though it may be harder to convert a hero during peacetime). Most times, competition = fun, so new forms of competition, especially during peacetime, would probably be welcome.

    Random events: A claimant to your throne arises! All heroes under X loyalty join him! (Yet another random event that may or may not be so random, but caused by one of your enemies!)

    "Mercenary Gathering Places": Early game, you'd have lots of heroes just waiting to be hired. But the tavern would stay busy mid- and late-game through heroes that have abandoned their liege and would prefer a new master (Not all heroes, I'd suspect, would try to steal a city and start civil war).

    Independent Empires: Maybe some heroes aren't satisfied with the loot and gold their getting, or the direction you're taking the kingdom. So they break away, and take (at least) one of your cities with you! An independent Empire arises with a very negative opinion of you, their (likely) closest neighbor.

    Disciplines: I can definitely see a positive discipline that inspires loyalty in your troops and champions, or a negative discipline that makes them all the more likely to betray you. For that matter, a "manipulator" or "persuasive" discipline that makes it easier to affect others' heroes would also be really cool.

    And that's just five ideas right off the top of my head. It could be a lot of fun to build loyalty in your own heroes and manipulate the loyalty in others. The only trick is to make sure that it is fun and not overly complex. I could easily see a loyalty mechanic turning into a dry or aggravating experience.

  9. #19
    Those are certainly some interesting potential dynamics. Some of it's going to depend on how the diplomacy system evolves. At the moment it's still in it's infancy. What it needs to do is mainly clear, but the "how" is still taking shape

    The idea that heroes could become dissatisfied and go back into the "hero pool" is good.

    Independent cities that end up becoming empires will hire heroes. (If that mechanic makes it in the final cut. I think it will.)

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Kortenaken, BE
    Hi Aaron,
    after reading this thread, I just wanted to add my (obviously insignificant, but nevertheless ) thoughts on this subject.

    I would LOVE the idea of a unit becoming a hero. I would not like this to be a repeating event. MoM and hopefully WoM will be all about replayability. It's about every game being different than the previous one. For this to have any kind of success, you will need a certain measure of randomness (maps, heroes/units for hire, events, ...).
    For this, you don't want to be have the game being too easy. If a unit promotes to lvl5, a counter is added saying something like "potential hero: 1". And then after an 'epic battle' (let me get back on this later), this potential is realised, or it's not (counter to 0). If you're attached to your units, you will be a "save-w*ore" like me, and you will re-load the game to try this battle again
    In other cases, you will have multiple armies with multiple high-tier base units so your odds will be better anyway. The base unit must get consumed though (maybe build-in the option somewhere where you say you don't want this unit to promote?).
    And if you don't succeed in this game, then you'll just get it in the next!?

    I would LOVE² to see a decent amount of random events. I loved the spontaneous contributions of wealth to enemy empires, re-launching the war between us that he had lost already, or a shift in resource-richness like in MoO2! or Storms hurting my crops, visitors from outer space giving 1 small piece of ridiculous technology that could REALLY influence the balance (for diplomacy, or economics, magic,... like a ballpoint pen increasing the rate of scribes, so + influence for diplomatics or clerics or whatever).

    I absolutely LOVE³ the mechanic of champions turning on you... instead or as an addition to having the citizens of your city revolting when you don't take care of them, perhaps you could have f.i. an undead hero to your high elven-cause, causing panic for a few turns in every city that he visits (when you're hiding or stopping by for shopping or recovering or whatever) and vice-versa, have your champion slowly turn away from your cause (refusing to fight in the middle of a battle!! ) because he just doesn't like you.
    Imagine the point, however, where your undead hero gets thàt much support that all of your people become undead-supporters, so that you'd get the eventual choice to TURN your entire population (or even better: just some cities!) undead!

    I wouldn't like very much the idea that heroes can get upgraded to champions. Gaming to me is also about making choices.Tough Choices add to the feeling of sentiment for your characters.
    I often would remove a hero from my roster to wait (or summon) for a new (better) one. This would sometimes completely de-stabilise my firm ruling of the playing field, which would force me to adapt my strategy and stop being lazy :-D

    Oh and please make enough different heroes, like 100 or so (but just allowing 6 at your control). The sensation I got after 2 years discovering that there were still heroes I hadn't had before (yes, after a few 100 games that is) is just about as high as you can get without the illegal stuff.

    Sorry about the waaayyy too long message, but that's what you get when you let enthousiasm have the better of you.


    ---------- Post added at 12:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:41 AM ----------

    And then of course one last thing I forgot to ask (and I couldn't find a place to post it elsewhere):
    wrt. items:
    finding items is cool. Passing merchants with a unique item was superb. Hiring a hero just because he 'owns' a particular item would be mega. Summoning items was neat. But how about you finding bits and pieces along the way in some dungeons (the ones that used to contain...NOTHING!), which you could put together once you have like a mage tower (high tier building) or a separate build (dunno, like 1 building that's good for nothing else but putting items together found from resources found along the way). You could have enchanted diamonds, the handle of the sword of Roderick The Mighty and a piece of blade from a Nazgul (just saying), or even just some iron ore from the cave of ulysses.
    This would enhance the replayability without too much effort (okay you'd just need to think of a gazillion pieces and where to put them and combinations) but it could be really appealing to the real treasure hunters out there. On the other hand, if you don't have the cash to buy good items (I remember this often), this would be a good way to get a headstart somehow.

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