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Thread: You Need A Hero?

  1. #21
    No one's thoughts are insignificant here And welcome!

    The actual mechanics of “spontaneous hero promotion” are going to come down to play testing. We've had a lot of suggestions here and we need to try them out and see how they play. It's just the nature of the beast.

    There will be a load of random events and a “new game” setting that let's you change the frequency

    Hero/Champions revolts are going to depend, to a certain extent, on how the diplomacy system works out. Now, some might ask “What has it got to do with diplomacy?” The idea is to make a single system that represents Good Time Happy Feelings that one entity might feel for another. So, it will be tied to all the GTHF in the game. Including those your heroes may feel for you.

    What would you think of the idea of a Hero having a chance to become a Champion? Just like a normal unit may spawn a Hero

    We want a LOAD of heroes. OH! Here's an idea! Up your pledge to 175 Pounds and add your own hero to the game

    Long messages are great!

    A lot of those ideas have been discussed here. A lot of them hadn't been. I really like the idea of an item you can assemble out of parts. (I think I have heard that around here somewhere before...)

  2. #22
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    Well if you're looking for a vampire "hero" then how about having a vampire unit that was summoned or created using a spell y'know like "blood corruption" or something have an ability that "consumes" a target unit ally or enemy that was under a certain percentage of hp then after a certain number of "consumption's" that vampire unit is the elevated to a "vampire lord" which gains some extra abilities like "bat swarm" and things like that and more abilities are unlocked the more consumption's made?


    This is a post I made in another thread, is that the sort of thing you could use for hero's to become champions? say a Vampire Hero can become a Vampire Lord Champion? something like that? You could have certain races have prequisists that can be achieved to send a hero into championhood? or even as a quest reward? I'd like the idea for a Draconian Race Hero to do something and then "Ascend" into a champion level Dragon or Half Dragon
    Limit of the thousands hands, respectful hands, unable to touch the darkness. Shooting hands unable to reflect the blue sky. The road that basks in light, the wind that ignited the embers, time that gathers when both are together, there is no need to be hesitant, obey my orders. Light bullets, eight bodies, nine items, book of heaven, diseased treasure, great wheel, grey fortress tower. Aim far away, scatter brightly and cleanly when fired

  3. #23
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    Hi Aaron, thanks for the warm welcome!

    I know long texts can sometimes be good, but I'm very much not used to talking to game devvers, so I don't know which terms could be interpreted badly or positively, so I thought warning would be the best

    But back ot:
    hero promotion still sounds a bit 'meh' to me (luckily you're not making this game for me ej ).
    I would hate to see this game becoming an example of 'as long as you reload enough savegames, you'll get the perfect army'.
    'Cause that's what MoM had to a large extent and it became an addiction after a while and as we all know, addictions are bad. (well I'm at work and we are keylogged so I'm supposed to say stuff like that )
    But srsly, games like XCOM are SO much more intriguing and enticing because you know that when you make an error (or a decision), you WILL regret it. You will adapt your strategies and you will improve by playing more dynamically.
    This feeling of finity can be used in other situations as well. You have a good base unit? -Great, because a good fighter a bad milking cow make. One shot at promotion and if it fails, it's done. There's still plenty of other ways to hire an attractive hero, right?
    Chance is good, but for me you can limit the repetitiveness of events within a single game (campaign) to give the experience some value.

    Do like James' idea about perhaps having different ways to create champion units (a base unit that promotes - does it have to be a hero or can it be a special kind of heavy unit - non-reproducable via one of your barracks f.i. ?).
    Imagine you having enchanted your bowmen enough times with 'strength spells' so that their DNA gets affected and a real mutant arises? Or an enchantment backfiring on one of your units so that you create an undead unit, or a monster-hero (mages ARE just humans after all, so they can under-articulate just like anybody else). I'd dig that for sure!

    I'll think about upping my KS. Too bad the renovations (2011-2013), the wedding (next month) and the honeymoon (idem) got on my budgetting list first ;-)

    Closing remark: the idea of the items was mine. All mine. Can I have some more rewards now? :-p

  4. #24
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    Anyone else see that guy whose just posted a load of crap? Someone get rid of him -_- Please. it's an eyesore :L

    ---------- Post added at 02:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:08 PM ----------

    daotaowp1 that is not fforgetso_ unless my pc brokew and what daotaowp1 said isn't crap o.o
    Limit of the thousands hands, respectful hands, unable to touch the darkness. Shooting hands unable to reflect the blue sky. The road that basks in light, the wind that ignited the embers, time that gathers when both are together, there is no need to be hesitant, obey my orders. Light bullets, eight bodies, nine items, book of heaven, diseased treasure, great wheel, grey fortress tower. Aim far away, scatter brightly and cleanly when fired

  5. #25
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    I think the idea of units being promoted to heros is an ok idea as long as it is a rare enough occurrence that it can't be relied on as a play strategy... I would say on average no more than once a game.. Maybe even less.

    Bu yes having it determined by that unit doing something particularly "heroic" I think that's an awesome idea! But even then only a small chance that they'll spit out a hero.

    Just my 2 cents

    ---------- Post added at 11:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:03 AM ----------

    Ah... just saw in aarons post that you'll be able to change the frequency of random events.. Lol. Solves my dilemma..

    Apologies... I'm a new-comer.. trying my best to read everything I can before adding to the discussion but.. only human

  6. #26
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    I’ll lay out my thoughts. Warning: Incoming flow of thought, it may not all be sensible. I’m going to try to play out a promotion in my head to see where I get stuck.

    Oh, and let me say, I like the idea of a regular (max exp) unit converting to a Hero because I feel it adds a new, and personal, twist on the Hero idea. Great idea Asmodai! A good one to debate and ponder on!

    I will also say that I have never felt a lack of obtaining heroes in MoM (just of obtaining the ones I wanted.) So while I welcome the idea of a new way to obtain heroes, getting one by the means of one showing up randomly, in a lair/temple/node (you rescued the hero), summon hero/champion spells was never a real issue. Of course this is a new game and the ratios will be…whatever they are.


    As for the promotion, I’d say tie it to the Fame check!

    In MoM you had to win a fight with at least 4 units on the opposing side to gain 1 Fame. Or for conquering a hamlet, village, town, city, or capital, you earned 0, 0, 1, 2, and 3 Fame points, respectively. I assume Fame will be in WoM, or some such mechanic, for now, let us call it Fame.
    The idea here is if the battle doesn’t grant fame, it doesn’t grant the ability to be promoted for a unit that survived the combat. And why not? Clearly to be a Hero you have to do something worthy of the fame! Obviously the % chance of promotion and numbers to be tweaked as fits WoM, standard play-testing stuff…

    First, let us assume that we have an elf ranger unit that is max level. It enters combat, survives, and the combat was large enough to gain Fame; the die were cast and we have lady luck on our side and our unit is promoted! Would we be given the opportunity to reject the promotion? Let’s assume we do, and we decide to take the hero.

    Secondly, for now, let us assume that the promotion doesn’t consume the unit. We have a new hero to join our army!

    But wait….! What happens when our army is at max stack size? In MoM it was 9 units per square max stack size and new units were automatically pushed to a new tile. It may be more in WoM, which isn’t a huge deal, but the question is the same: What happens when a stack is full, and a unit is promoted to hero, but is not consumed. Which unit gets pushed aside? The new hero or the old unit? I assume the new hero, as it could actually weaken our army on the frontlines to lose such a valuable experienced unit for a nubile hero.

    Where does the hero get pushed to? Obviously, an empty tile/a tile that can accommodate it but… What happens, if for some reason, it cannot move to a new tile? Maybe it is completely surrounded by enemies? Do we have to fight automatically with whatever it is pushed in to? That doesn’t seem right. What if it has a free tile next to a full strength enemy army? That doesn’t seem good. So let’s have it automagically teleported.
    Does it get teleported to our nearest town, our Capital, or our Summoning Circle? What if their stacks are full? So we have to create a hierarchy of where the unit goes. Let’s make it the Capital or any tile available around it; if none, then Summoning Circle or any tile available around it. I know it probably seems tedious or even superfluous to worry about, but these are the kinds of things that lead to game crashing bugs, in my experience.

    So the unit gets teleported to the capital/summoning circle, or wherever it ends up going. Is it the same race/class as the unit? That makes the most sense. But Heroes come from a pool of premade “Units”. What if we have all the elf ranger Heroes in the army already? Fine, let’s create a template for a “Random” hero. It will come with race/class from the unit it came from, and be given base stats as such. Extra stats/abilities can be “rolled” much like they were in MoM when certain Heroes had a chance to get certain abilities from a pool of abilities if so desired, so that every “Elf Ranger Hero” that is promoted this way isn’t the same (or maybe it should be?)

    So this new Elf Ranger Hero is created with base stats, (I like the idea for extra flair of the last unit type that was attacked by the unit that spawned the hero becomes its “Favored Enemy”, this is where my D20 reading pays off), it is in the capital. A pop up screen shows us the stats/random abilities if any and gives us the chance to name the unit. Is it male or female? Do we get to choose? Sure, why not? We chose female. (This means we have to have at least 2 models for each race/class combination of hero. ) We type in the name “Sylvia”, and poof, Sylvia is awaiting orders.

    Wait…can she move this turn? Nah, summoning sickness, so to speak. Plus it gives us time to load her up with goodies, maybe that phantasmal longbow of haste that we found off that sky drake 2 turns ago.

    Meanwhile our regular army that Sylvia promoted from is back on the front lines, getting ready to shoot arrows into basilisk.

    Ok, so that worked out alright. I can visualize it happening.

    So a few things:
    1) Small chance for promotion to occur, only with Fame qualifying battles, and a small percentage chance even so. We can choose to reject the promotion.
    2) Spontaneous Hero promotion does not consume unit. (unless it is a single figure unit, although I imagine most/all of these would be considered fantastic creatures that could not be promoted...?)
    3) New Hero is automagically teleported to the Capital/Fortress etc...
    4) Templates for class/race combinations, with male/female models need to be made.
    5) Pool of abilities for heroes need to be created/pulled from (as it were in MoM), so that all heroes aren't the same. (Although if people want them to be, or D20 dictates it to be, that's cool too.)
    6) Pop up Summary of Hero's stats/abilities with a name field so we can name the hero. (Maybe a validation check that the name isn't used by us already, although maybe having 5 heroes that look similar named the same would be a cool "mind trick" for other real players :P)

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry4444 View Post
    Ok, so that worked out alright. I can visualize it happening.

    So a few things:
    1) Small chance for promotion to occur, only with Fame qualifying battles, and a small percentage chance even so. We can choose to reject the promotion.
    2) Spontaneous Hero promotion does not consume unit. (unless it is a single figure unit, although I imagine most/all of these would be considered fantastic creatures that could not be promoted...?)
    3) New Hero is automagically teleported to the Capital/Fortress etc...
    4) Templates for class/race combinations, with male/female models need to be made.
    5) Pool of abilities for heroes need to be created/pulled from (as it were in MoM), so that all heroes aren't the same. (Although if people want them to be, or D20 dictates it to be, that's cool too.)
    6) Pop up Summary of Hero's stats/abilities with a name field so we can name the hero. (Maybe a validation check that the name isn't used by us already, although maybe having 5 heroes that look similar named the same would be a cool "mind trick" for other real players :P)
    Very specific this topic about hero teleportation and stuff interessting that it came to your mind.
    I just wanted here to add my opinion about how often a hero should appear. As most of you guys remembered you could obtain more than your starting magic books by winning a really hard fight say 2 sky drakes and allies. So I think it would be OK if you could promote your base units to heroes in a similar ratio that means 1-3 in a game.
    Furthermore I say that it would make most sense if the unit which the hero spawned should be downgraded 1 or 2 level in experience, I think this would be a fair trade and it was already suggested here somewhere.
    Another Idea I had is that every baseunit get a base class like: warrior, archer, mage and so on. And if a unit could be promoted to a hero you can choose between two classes which will be the advanced classes like; warrior into berserker or paladin archer into scout or ranger.
    Real programmers don't comment their code - it was hard to write, it should be hard to understand.

  8. #28
    Abecedarian Mage Trudd's Avatar
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    Yes, promotion must be a rare event, but it must not happen to late in the game.
    Getting a new hero of your prime swordmen when you already have 2 or 3 champions (which are necessary to take over 2 skydrake) is useless.
    promotion should happen in the mid game, not after.

  9. #29
    OK, I've got to keep this brief guys. You'll have to excuse me.

    To prevent "load until I get a hero" syndrome there will be several limiting factors in place. First, you can only have so many heroes. So, hiring up a bunch on randomly generated ones will keep you from hiring hand crafted ones. Second, we can make the promotion roll at unit creation. So, from the moment it's created it will or will not be promoted in future. Combine that with a "fame" requirement and load until you get a random hero will be more work than it's worth.

    If a hero ends up generating where it can't possibly exist we'll put it in a (to borrow the Dr.'s words) "A sort of limbo closet in... limbo" just like artifact are. Then you move them out of it into you capital or whatever. The idea is that the hero just realized how great he had become and rode all the way home to tell you about it and is sitting just outside your office until you have time to talk about his promotion (and raise in pay of course)

  10. #30
    Mage’s Assistant Belgariad87's Avatar
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    still not totally sure about that "everything has a class" deal... i like classes, but i like them to be shown through abilities and gameplay rather than you telling me "Rakir is a ranger lvl 1". seems off.

    Speaking of which, could i ask the favor of having set heroes keep the titles like MoM had for heroes? they were always kinda cool to me like Malleus the Magician or Warrax the Chaos Warrior. Why is Warrax the Chaos Warrior? I don't know, but it sure sounds cool though, doesn't it?

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