A Heroic Philosophy

[Aaron]

I think we agree that full "level up" is too much. We may play around with the prestige class upgrade and see how people like it. If nothing else we can use it as a base and work up from there.

When I said blank I meant basically that you would have to give them a name, set their stats, etc. It's too much. Again I think we agree.

Offering a reward for heroes who might wish to join you is an interesting concept. Kinda like running a "want ad", lol. We'll have to keep it in mind.

[Asmodai]

I definitely agree that naming, setting the stats, choosing class, choosing the sex, choosing the race, etc. is WAY too much to do IN GAME (again a post release external hero editor wouldn't be a horrible thing). I would like to have SOME say in my heroes ADVANCEMENT though and I think picking their feats and assigning bonus attribute points is a nice balance (though there could certainly be an option to auto-pick it if people don't want to mess with it). Heck I don't even see the point of changing a heroes name even though I like being able to rename base units. Telling a hero "I shall call you... Tim!" I don't think would go over too well, rofl. But feat selection and bonus attribute point assignment would let you tune them a little bit... think your hero is too weak, take the toughness feat. Choosing if they take a prestige class or not would also be nice but none of this is a MUST HAVE feature.

[Aaron]

I agree. I think level up options would be nice, but they may end up waiting for DLC. The main thing is to get the core game in place. Then we can build on that foundation. Still, these are good ideas and I like to look toward to the future.

[Trudd]

IMO, preset heroes should have their preset level up.
I don't imagine well the boss telling the hero "you better need to upgrade your life point instead of your mana pool"...
That was the charming side of MoM. You can control every thing of the strategic way, but nothing on the "experience" way.

[Aaron]

Lol, I see your point. However, I think we could offer some limited level up options as well as an "auto level up" option without loosing too much flavor. Think it as the boss forcing you to take a class in order to get a promotion

[Larry4444]

This may be a bit of a late post for this topic; I was skimming through this and decided to comment.

I like the idea of blending Set Heroes and Procedural Generation. So having some that are Set, then Procedural Generation for random flavor.

Did anyone ever play MoM on Impossible/Powerful Magic and all the heroes died and you didn't have life magic so no resurrection? *raises his hand* I have. Sky Drakes FTL! Eventually the game doesn't give you new heroes/champions because you killed them all!! At that point it would have been good to have "random" heroes created when the Set ones were no longer available. That being said, it would also be cool to have random ones show up for hire just like regular ones did.

If something like this is implemented I'll go as far as to say that the "Summon Hero/Champion" spells should only have access to the "Set Heroes/Champions".
Procedural Generated ones should come intermingled with the Set Heroes through the other recruitment options; randomly offering themselves for hire, found in liars/temples/nodes, etc. This adds even more "randomness and replayability".

Another thing I really love in MoM, is some heroes (such as Brax the Dwarf) were the same in every game. He had the same stats/abilities.
However other heroes and champions while having set classes and basic stats, had different abilities, some chosen at random each game. Mystic X being the prime example, with 5 random abilities. Random Abilities



I'm not a huge fan of having to chose how my hero "levels up", at least not in this kind of game. Maybe choosing the "prestige" class for Champions as has been discussed, though I'm not completely sold on the idea.

[Aaron]

We are going to have both Set and Generated heroes. Summon Hero will only summon Set heroes. Most of the Set heroes will have set stats, but we may throw some random ones in there for flavor.

We have talked about allowing you to select a prestige class, but it's still up in the air.

[Belgariad87]

Excellent discussion! I want to thank you guys for jumping in with in-depth ideas. You're helping shape the game!

Now, when I said “custom heroes” I wasn't thinking anything like creating heroes in an editor that would then be added to the hero pool. That having been said I REALLY like the idea! Also, I think it will be very easy to add. The system I'm developing for supporting D20 actually uses a form in the editor that allows you to customize the unit. It would be very little effort to wire it's guts to an in-game GUI and let you guys make your own heroes. (Keep in mind, this would just be from a stats point of view. We will only have so many portraits/models. Although we can add more via DLC.)

What I really meant was that heroes would show up blank or almost blank and you would be able to “fill them out” as they leveled up. Basically choosing all their level up options. I honestly think this is too much, especially if we include an editor where you can create heroes for the pool. I consider myself a hard core gamer (with these type games anyway), but even I don't want to go through the “level up” process with every hero, every level.

Looking at all three directions we could go I honestly feel we're moving toward “all three ways”. Set Heroes really are almost a “have to have” because they help flesh out the back story of the game and add flavor that just won't be there without them. If we're going to created heroes from units (rarely, very rarely) we should probably use a procedural generation system to make them. Add in the ability to create heroes in a editor and we have a real winner.

I do want to say that I don't think the editor will be completely open. Well, let me say there will be limits on heroes that can be used in a game where you can get achievements. If you want to play a game where you've made a hero with 100 strength, that's up to you. You just can't get achievements in a game he's in. (In theory guys, keep in mind, this is in theory. Concepts first.) Anyway, “official” heroes will use a character creation process like D20. You will have x many stat points to spend and you will be able to set the feats, stat gains, etc. for the hero all the way up to top level.

As far as limiting the number of heroes is concerned we really are going to have to wait until things are fleshed out a bit to decide. Well, that and we need to do a load of play testing.

Good ideas guys. Keep it up!

This summation is perfect. I very much like this and i agree that leveling up every hero for every level is tedious. I think procedural generation is a bonus, not so much *needed*. Set heroes are a must, and making custom heroes outside of the game will allow people to share their home-made heroes with the world! that way custom heroes can become "Set" heroes, if done right. IMO, it should all come back to set heroes. I like seeing the hero's stats and abilities before i hire them, mainly because its a big investment. I don't want to have to guess at whether i want them through rumors and legends. Since when was the last time you hired Malleus because the sister to the great aunt of the innkeepers niece said he might have killed a Great Wyrm?

P.S. MoM's set heroes did have some random abilities... something to keep in mind?

[AquaRegia]

... i agree that leveling up every hero for every level is tedious.

I sometimes find leveling up my actual D&D characters tedious, and that's pretty much what D&D is all about. Heh.

That said, it would be nice to have SOME input at "strategic" junctures, such as choosing prestige pathways (if you want it). I might be kind of cool for SOME heroes to offer the player choices while others don't.

[Kah-thurak]

What I would like you to consider is how powerful the heroes in the game should be. If I remember correctly, in a MoM late game, Heroes were One Man Armies that could kill most oponnent units on their own. This was one of the few things I did not like about the game.