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Thread: Rogues?

  1. #1
    Moderator Asmodai's Avatar
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    Rogues?

    Since the idea is to base this off of the D20 system, not having one of the big 4 classes (by that I mean Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Rogue... where it all began) seems to be a big omission.
    So if we want to fix that then maybe there should be a "Thieves Guild" building that enables you to make Rogues.

    Some idea of what a rogue might do.
    Hide/Sneak - Rogue units do not display on the world map to non-allied factions unless adjacent to a unit of that faction. (this applies to the rogue unit only and NOT other units when stacked)
    This means rogues can scout around in enemy territory without the faction knowing, without breaking treaties, etc. unless an enemy moves by them or they move by it.
    Sneak attack - Rogue units get extra damage in combat when flanking, attacking paralyzed units, etc.
    Balance - less likely to fall prone in tactical combat on slick surfaces (ice)
    Tumble - reduced fall damage by 10' (DC 15 - rogue skill assumed to be 3 + level + dex bonus - armor check penalty)
    move at half movement without provoking an attack of opportunity. (DC 15)
    move "through" an enemy unit without provoking an attack of opportunity (DC 25)

    Rogue heroes might also be able to get loot from SOME ruins, use a planar gate, etc. without having to fight the guardian.

    Not saying all these would need to be in, heck Rogues don't need to be in at all, just thought I'd brainstorm how they could be added and provide some use since traps and secret doors aren't really present.

  2. #2
    They are definitely in as heroes. As units I'm not so sure. Let's see what kind of feedback your post gets

  3. #3
    Mage’s Assistant
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    Seven Kingdoms and Knights of Honor have agents and it was very funny. You recruit a spy and send him away. And he appears for your enemy as a normal hero to hire. XD And he makes you agent a leader of one of his army XD.
    Last edited by John Madlock; 02-24-2013 at 09:25 PM.
    Sorry, signature is under construction.

  4. #4
    Moderator Asmodai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
    They are definitely in as heroes.
    I'm curious as to how you planned to implement their class abilities for heroes.

  5. #5
    I like the spies in Knights of Honor. It was a good system. Of course, I only used them for defense, lol.

    Asmodai, give me an example class and I'll give you an example implementation. Most of them are fairly straight forward. "Turn" will be implemented with a "turn" mechanic. (I'll actually probably use the casting system to implement it, if you mean "how" from a technical point of view.) Rage we plan to make an option on the unit menu. You click "Rage" the hero goes into a rage and all the bonuses are applied until he runs out of rage time. It's all integrated into the D20 system I'm developing.

  6. #6
    Moderator Asmodai's Avatar
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    Sorry for being vague. You said that rogues were definitely in for heroes and I was asking how you planned to implement ROGUE class abilities for the heroes.

  7. #7
    When I hear rogues, my mind cannot help but wander to two of my favorite games of all time. CIVIII is the first, particularly with regards to its privateers. Naval units that are disguised as barbarians and wreck havoc on my enemies and allies alike without consequence for my diplomatic ratings! They were awesome, and I always wished that there was a land version. I could see rogues being something like that: Units that, to their enemies, appear to be mere bandits. They'd be weaker than most other units, but such is the price for stealth.

    Of course, Asmodai's ideas could also work. Rogues not disguised, but literally stealthed unless bumped into. That'd also be really great for secretive scouting, or setting up an invisible army of rogues deep within enemy territory. Again, I'd imagine they'd be weaker units to compensate for their strategic potential. Perhaps Rogue heroes could have the same abilities.

    Now having said that...

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
    I like the spies in Knights of Honor. It was a good system.
    Knights of Honor is the best underrated (or rather, unknown) game ever. A brilliant presentation alongside a system that was easy to learn but complex to master. Spies was definitely one of the best parts of that whole game. It's likely beyond the scope of WoM, but I just have to say I loved that system and would probably find it equally awesome if a similar mechanic found its way into WoM. I'm not sure if that's a rogue thing necessarily (I'd say we'd need a spy unit/hero for that), but it's definitely awesome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asmodai View Post
    ...use since traps and secret doors aren't really present.
    Well... maybe we need to fix that... nyehehehe. (Seriously though, traps and ambushes on the strategic map (or even tactical, if applicable) could be a very interesting addition.)

  8. #8
    The "spy" system is obviously out of WoM's realm, but depending on how Diplomacy turns out we may allow you to "disguise" certain units and good "do badding" in other people's colors (as it were). If we do that "rogues" are a great fit.

    Asmodai, I should have made the connection and realized you were talking about Rogues. Sneak attack, evasion, uncanny dodge, etc. can obviously be dropped right into WoM. We're going to have to make some decisions about traps. (ATM they are out, but I'm open to new ideas.) Some of the rogue talents we'll be able to be fit in. If we take out things like "trap sense" we'll have to put something else in. We'll just have to look at it. Rogue is going to be the hardest one to fit it, but I think it can be done. It's just going to need extra play testing because of the additions we're going to have to make.

  9. #9
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    Although using the d20 system is good, I would prefer keeping it more transparent from a player perspective when it comes to units. I don't want to need to know or care about having a ton of buildings for my units to have specific feats or abilities.

    Tell me I need to build a barracks and then a stable to have knights, great. Tell me I need to build a barracks and then a stable so my units can have x trait added possibly under y conditions, and I'm gonna be "Huh?". Some consideration for us non-tabletop gamers please.

  10. #10
    I see what you mean. We want to keep things as strait forward as possible. Of course, I think we can keep the rogues simple from that perspective. All we need to do is have a "thieves guild" where they train or what have you.

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