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Thread: The Goblin Hoard

  1. #1

    The Goblin Hoard

    Alright, most of you guys seem to be goblin mad. So I wanted to start a post about it so we could flesh out the goblin/orc race.

    Before we start I want to address my concern with it getting the “fifth race” slot. We have humans, dwarves and elves. I don't think anyone is going to argue that they are “meat and potatoes” races. However, they are also very similar. They eat, pay taxes, chop wood, don't fly, etc. They have differences that certainly set them apart, but they're not as “different” as we plan to make undead for example. Now, it's fine if we want to add goblinoids and make them mostly “the same” as well. I just want to make sure that they have plenty of flavor. I also think we should make them a “conglomerate” race. We can throw goblins, orcs, bugbears, etc. into the pile. I also want to add that goblins will eventually make it in, I'm just sure about giving them the fifth slot.

    So, what races would go in the “Orc” faction?
    What would give the faction that special “Orc” flavor?

    Thoughts?

  2. #2
    Suicidal Angel Administrator doomtrader's Avatar
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    Greenskins!!
    Greenskins!!!!
    Greenskins are coming!

  3. #3
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    Two thoughts:

    1. Make a goblin/orc a race(s) that dwells underground (in caves, tunnels). This underground world could be simply another plane. Just like in MOM. So nothing original, but I'd love it. (EDIT: Dwarves could be a problem though: the are a good race, but dwell underground. So underground plane wouldn't be evil by default. This changes perspective.)

    2. Make two races that are evil reflections of two good races. Goblins could be evil elves, orcs could be evil humans. This could have interesting consequences: diplomatic-wise, combat-wise, etc.

    EDIT: Or make orcs evil version of dwarves! This could be even more interesting. Elves don't like dwarves by default, but will ally with them when evil races are a threat. This relation could be mirrored between goblins and orcs. I don't know how to implement this though

    EDIT 2: There could also be a neutral race, dark elves, that could dwell in both worlds, but wouldn't gain tactical bonuses in both of them.
    Last edited by Eraser; 02-24-2013 at 03:35 PM.

  4. #4
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    Well, let's examine what traditional greenskins are (aside from green). Usually, they are numerous, focused on offence more than defence and quite savage. I imagine a race like that would be hard to lead, even with magic, so how about a mechanic that has the player partially lose control over his units in battle under certain circumstances? Let's say certain units can't stand their ground for too long -weaker units like goblins have a chance to flee when facing superior forces (only for a short time - completely fleeing a battle would be too harsh), and stronger units like orcs and trolls could sometimes recklessly charge the enemy. To balance things out, fleeing units could maybe get a bonus on evasion or a stronger attack once they've recovered and charging units could get a bonus to attack or make enemies retreat out of fear.

    Outside of battle, the greenskins wouldn't lend themselves to diplomacy, of course. They might have a specialised raiding mechanic where their economy is partially driven by looting from other factions, or maybe they could have slaves from other races or even rival greenskin tribes. If you don't make them live in caves, have their buildings at least be kind of ramshackle - maybe only the aesthetics, maybe with in-game consequences like their stuff is easier to destroy. To balance this out their active defences (if you plan on having settlements defend themselves like in Civ V or allow races to build archer towers and similar stuff) should be stronger.

  5. #5
    Acolyte Darko's Avatar
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    Greenskins battling each other, Warhammer style. LOL.

  6. #6
    Moderator Asmodai's Avatar
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    First I prefer the idea of them being a "conglomerate" faction as well. I see goblins, hobgoblins, bugbears, orcs, ogres, and trolls all belonging to the same faction.

    I see some of their big perks as being the higher growth rate in their cities (faster than humans, who are in turn faster than dwarves and elves) and the cheap price of their base units so while starting units might be weaker they are more numerous. This may take the form of more units (depending on stack limits) or just more creatures in a unit (for example a unit of human spearmen might be 4 soldiers while goblins base units might have 6 soldiers.)

    As a faction one must keep in mind that there is a powerful Wizard guiding them so I don't think they'd be as disorganized as their races may normally be. Also Hobgoblins (in D20) are NOT disorganized, they are lawful and just as intelligent and charismatic as humans. Also if Ogre Magi are used they are also lawful and are MORE intelligent and charismatic leaders than humans, elves, or dwarves. I see an army led by a powerful Wizard with Ogre Magi as generals and Hobgoblin lieutenants directing the chaotic mobs.

    I also see this army as a way to pay homage to several of the exclusive units in MoM without having multiple different factions.
    Example goblin javelineers could replace spearman as the base unit. (javelineers were a lizard man exclusive unit in MoM)
    goblin worg riders would replace cavalry (wolf riders were a gnoll exclusive unit in MoM)
    Orc barbarians (taking the place of the barbarian faction berserker unit in MoM)
    A D20 Troll based unit would be an homage to the Troll faction from MoM.

    Conservative army list concept:
    goblin javelineers replace spearman (weaker but quicker to produce and longer range)
    hobgoblin swordsman (light armor, light shield, 3 tile move so faster than humans and a match for elves when not in forest)
    goblin shaman (adept) vs other races priests (clerics) as only divine spell caster (weaker but earlier access)
    goblin worg riders replace cavalry (require forest square instead of planes)
    Orc barbarians
    Ogres (Merrow when city is adjacent to water) with reach and wall crushing (goblins have no engineers or siege weapons... Ogres serve this role.)
    Ogre magi are the only arcane spell casters, extremely powerful/expensive unit built late in the build tree (like dark elf warlocks from MoM)
    Trolls (Scrag when city is adjacent to water) are another powerful unit... perhaps Ogres are only built when the city is on a hill tile and Trolls are only built when the city is on a Mountain tile.

    More radical (err... "flavorful") concepts:
    Tribal in nature so can pack up cities and move them. (not sure how this would work with the wizard tower though, maybe if they don't have more advanced buildings this doesn't work)
    Goblin cities don't pay taxes and thus don't generate wealth themselves HOWEVER when they capture cites of other races that DO pay taxes then they get the taxes from those (occupied) cities (to pay upkeep for units generated from occupied races, hire heroes, etc.) As such goblin racial units also don't have money upkeep, just food nor do their buildings require upkeep (again, they are temporary... also making them much easier to destroy when the city is attacked).
    Perhaps instead making a true "tree" structure for their buildings theirs go by population. So (using MoM city sizes) a hamlet can only build barracks and housing; a village adds a smithy, sawmill, and shrine; a town adds armory and stables; a city adds the Fighters guild; and the capital is required before you can build the most advanced buildings/units (for Ogre Magi)

  7. #7
    I wish I had a whole page of cool ideas to add, but basically, Unwerth and Asmodai have already touched upon the basic ideas I had in mind. All I can really do is summarize what they've suggested. I'd argue Goblins should be:

    -Tribal. Being tribal and less civilized could affect the kinds (and quality) of buildings they could build, the kinds of resources they could collect (like Asmodai suggested, perhaps units don't have a gold upkeep and cities don't collect taxes. Gold would have an entirely different function in Goblin gameplay, like manually upgrading tribal sites and building high-level buildings. You gotta raid or trade if you want gold! Food and population, in contrast, are even more important.)
    -Vast and varied. Population is the goblins' main strength. So they have lots of low-level mobs running around, versus the other faction's more quality units. But as the game progresses, goblins gain access to the orcs and trolls and etc., which give them a wide option of new strategies and tactics.
    -Aggressive. This could affect unit stats and abilities, or even diplomatic possibilities. Indeed, the whole Goblin culture revolves around raiding, so extra features and penalties should reflect that dynamic.

  8. #8
    Hitting the main points:

    The “underground” concept is interesting. It would work much like “underwater”. If we decide to implement them they are going to have to wait for DLC.

    We're not sure how we're going to implement faction “alignments” yet. Good and evil probably won't really come into the faction dynamics even if racial prejudice does. So, elves might dislike orcs and vice versa, but that doesn't mean either of them are evil.

    Automatic raiding parties could be very interesting.

    I think we should run with “conglomerate” unless/until someone offers a strong counter-argument. It's a good way to fit a lot of interesting races under one faction.

    I think higher numbers at lower cost for the lower tiers is a good idea.

    I like the unit suggetions, Asmodai, they do pay homage to MoM.

    Being able to move a city is also a very cool concept. We'll have to flesh out the ideas, but it's heading in an interesting direction.

  9. #9
    Moderator Asmodai's Avatar
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    Idea for tribal nature:
    Every faction builds settlers, normally you can only build a settler though if you have population 2 of more because building it reduces your population by one (a settler is one city population unit moving about the map). You can also send a settler to an existing city to "transfer" one unit of population to it.

    In addition to "normal" settlers Orcs can make a super settler "move tribe" that turns the who city's population into a single unit. This is dangerous because that unit is just as vulnerable as a settler but represent multiple population (whatever the city was at when you converted it to a unit) but this allows you to move entire cities. When you resettle though you have the high population but you have to rebuild all the buildings you had so it's not for the faint of heart. The faction starting city cannot be moved however because the faction leaders fortress is a permanent structure there's just a tribe growing up around it. If the faction leaders fortress is move however then that city can move as well.

    Orcs don't build things, they have no engineers, no roads, no mines, no siege weapons, no boats. They do conquer other factions and use theirs though. Even without these units though they aren't powerless with respect to their assigned roles. Ogres for example have wall crushing so they can serve as super engineers in attacking cities/forts. Merrow and Scrag (Ogres and Trolls) have swim so they are able to go through water. Ogre Magi can fly in D20 but I propose that not only can they fly but they can use their magic to fly their stack (similar to wind walk but with the Ogre Mage's movement rate) making them effectively the "boats" for their faction (though not available till MUCH later in the game).

  10. #10
    I like the ability to move a city with a "super settler". I also like the "no engineers" take. Ogre Mages are a CR8, so yes, they would be high level units.

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