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Thread: Walking With Giants (The Giant Race)

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  1. #1

    Walking With Giants (The Giant Race)

    The suggestion was made to add giants to the racial lineup and I admit I find the idea intriguing. However, it's fraught with difficulties. First, there's the very obvious problem of unit strength. A D20 Hill giant (just about the bottom of the “giant” pile) has a challenge rating of 7. That puts their bottom unit very near the top of the units list. There are also the story limitations to consider. How much land does it take to feed a population of giants? How does this limit their population? How much work can giants accomplish compared to other races?

    Now, these questions may seem to throw the giant race right out the window, but that's not necessarily the case. From a storyline point of view why is it giants don't take over the entire D20 universe? Well, I can imagine several reasons, some of which touch my former questions.

    1.) It takes a LOT of land to farm enough to feed a giant. Giant cities are going to get far less “max population” per world tile. They grow the same amount of food (maybe a bit more), but they eat a great deal more per population count.
    2.) Slow gestation period. How long does it take to grow a giant baby? Elephants have a two year gestation. Giants may have an even longer one.
    3.) They produce a lot more, but their things cost a lot more. They can build a human size building in an afternoon, but a “giant sized” building takes them as long to build as it would take men to build the same building “man sized”.

    There are probably other limitations that effect giants that you guys will be able to come up with. Those are just three off the top of my head. Their cities are going to have a lower max population. Their population is going to grow far more slowly. Their production bonuses are going to be offset by increased production cost.

    They could really add a unique flavor to the game as they would produce very low numbers of very powerful units. Then, of course, there's the matter of how they could be used in combination with other races. Imagine a good sized giant city dedicated to making trade goods! All that production pumping gold into your empire. Rather than guard the city with super expensive giants you use slightly less expensive paladins (What trade goods do giants make that other races would want? Modular homes! They build a full size house in a matter of hours. Then they carry it to where ever you want, put it in place and BAM insta-house.)

    I really believe it could be a very interesting race, but we have find a way to reign in it's initial power. Say we started the giants with two units (like everyone else). They would be able to run around the map killing almost everything in their path. It wouldn't make for much of a game. One fix (that I think is bad) would be to put in something goofy at the bottom of the unit pile. Something like “giant war dogs” that were not nearly as powerful as actual giants. It's not much of a fix I admit.

    The question is: Can we make giants a playable race in WoM?

    Thoughts?

  2. #2
    Moderator Aldaron's Avatar
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    It would be very hard to pull off a Giant race and I don't think it'll add much to the game. They are just big humanoids. Maybe instead of using giants you could use Goliaths as the base race with giants making the higher level units.

  3. #3
    Acolyte
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    Hmmm, how very interesting yet challenging.

    Maybe you can have a growth cycle based on experience, sort of like dragon age groups.

    Units start off as Baby Giants(Name might need changing) Roughly the size of full grown men, and gain size and stats as they increase in level.
    An orc is a fire plug of a fighting machine made of muscle, hide, talon, and tusk, with a villainous dispostition and a mean sense of humor. And, of course, an orc is a poor dumb grunt - the much abused foot soldier of the Evil Horde of Darkness.

  4. #4
    Moderator Asmodai's Avatar
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    Like True Dragons I would LOVE to see D20 Giants in the game however I'd prefer they not be a playable faction. I would rather see them as tough guardians of treasure, nodes, etc.
    Ogres and Trolls are giant TYPE in D20 (if you get a bonus vs. Giant, it works against them) and I like them as top end units in the goblin/orc faction.
    Also it doesn't make a lot of sense to put say D20 Storm Giants (good) in the same faction as Frost Giants (Evil)
    Even besides alignment different Giant types are from different climates so it would be odd to have cities with a mix of them.

    For those that don't know the D20 variety here is a quick list of the types an creatures typically found with groups of them.
    Cloud - griffons, dire lions
    Fire - hell hounds, trolls, ettins, young red dragons
    Frost - winter wolves, ogres, young white dragons
    Hill - Dire wolves, Ogres, Orcs
    Stone - Dire bears
    Storm - rocs, griffons, sea cats

    I could see the Hill Giants being added to the goblin/orc faction since they often hang out with orcs and dire wolves.

    If there is a GIANT push to make them into a faction then I would suggest you make each into it's own faction. Giants are a race that advances by class, they vary by subrace but adepts, clerics, and sorcerers are not uncommon.
    So you could have like a Cloud Giant faction with:

    Cloud Giant warrior (armed with an oversized Morningstar)
    Cloud Giant Rock Thrower
    Griffons (not mounts, just as a unit)
    Dire Lions (not mounts, just as a unit)
    Cloud Giant Sorcerers
    Cloud Giant Priests

    That would make more sense as a D20 inspired army list than having a mix of different giant types in a single faction. That said I'd really prefer to run into these things as encounter creatures instead of a faction.

  5. #5
    Mage of the Lesser Tower Rybon's Avatar
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    Asmodai, thanks for the heads up on the D20.

    What I am curious about for the races of this game, how close are you sticky to the D20 list?

  6. #6
    The races are being pitched from a combination vector of MoM and D20, lol. That is to say that the races are going to be influenced by both.

    I think the "lean" is to place giants in WoM via other factions and wandering monsters/feature guardians etc. I love giants and I feel we have to have them. They're probably just to powerful to be their own faction.

  7. #7
    Arcane Candidate
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    What about a mixed-race? Few but powerful giants that use tribal humanoids as slaves/vassals?

  8. #8
    That could be way to do it for sure. The nobility could be giants and the peasantry normal races. I think it's an excellent idea. It could end up just dripping with flavor! The giants could be noble protectors or ruthless tyrants. You could get a lot of good material there.

  9. #9
    Alright I am going to make a stand for the giant idea, because the idea is just made of flavour.


    When I first read it I thought on the troll of MoM and the frostgiants of dom3. So that is where my ideas come from.


    The problem with giants are that even the most basic is big, though and mean. In many ways making their basic units almost like last tier units of other races. I think that there is a way to get around this, by shifting what tier what units comes. That will make the giants a unique challenge to battle, much like an all flying race.


    Concept:
    I'm thinking frost giants Vikings. They want and need to conquere other races, to feed and pay for their units, but because they are so big and slow they are not made to be an early, but midgame conquering race. Cold follows which give them a significant bonus in combat, but a large disadvantagde outside combat.


    Racial wide:
    Giant cities grow very slow and have very few building. Giving them little gold, food and fewer tiers than other races. Cities conquered by giants will produce much less food and a bit less gold than normal because of the cold that follows the giants. I'm thinking -50% food and -25% gold as basic, but because other races have acces to farming upgrades and get much bigger than giant cities they are still a lot better at producing food, which the giants needs a lot of, because giants have a high food upkeep.
    If an army have even a single frostgiant with them all non-frost giants gets frost-bitten which makes it easier to hit them and makes them worse at hitting other.


    Units(Lowest tier at the top):
    Knejt-(Stonethrower)
    A single frost giant young teenager who throws rocks after the enemey. Because of giants low dex he is very bad at hitting things, but when he hits it hurts. He doesn't weare any armour and his soft child skin offers him very little protection. In effect this unit can deal a lot of damagde if he hits, but because of his low armor score he is very easy to kill despite having quit a bit of hit points. His stones can smash walls though and he is the giants only siege unit.


    Skægling (Early tier fighter)
    A single frost giant older teenager who fights with a spear and no armor. He can attack on square away.
    Like the Knejt we have a unit that deals a high amount of damagde, but can't take that much himself. As giants are costly, have high upkeep and take a long time to build he will often find himself outnumbered, flanked and cut to pieces.


    Karl (Mid tier basic unit)
    This is a full grown giant with a helm, light armor and a two handed axe.
    Karls can deal the most damagde of all giant units, he have a lot of hitpoints and some armor which makes him a good all around unit, but he is still hampered by being expensive and having no shield making him vulnearble to missile units. You will have a hard time fielding them in numbers.


    Frost Wolf(Mid tier cavalery)
    This is a slow light cavalery unit. They are weak, but cheap and their only there to help the giants against being outnumbered.


    Hirdgiant(High tier unit)
    The trained fighters of the giants. Use a sword for parry, shield, light armor and helm making him the frontline fighter of the giants. He is very hard to bring down, but deals less damage than the karl. Other giants standing next to him gets protection against missile.


    Jarl(End tier magic unit)
    The ruler of the giants. Insanly expensive. Fights with heavy armor, helm and a magical double handed sword. As long as there is a Jarl in combat the opposing army is frost-bitten.


    So the idea is that because of "frost-bitten" any non-giant unit in giant army is very hampered in performance, forcing you to make armies either without any giants or only made of giants.


    Now the giant units focus on synergy, so the early units are quit horrible alone as they either die to easy or can't hit. This change when you get to the mid tier units. Then you can use Karls as front fighters and Skæglings as second rank, while using Frost Wolfs to protect your flanks. Your still very easy to shoot down, but with the addition of a few Hirdgiants that will pass and the Jarl enables your high damagde units to land their blows more often.


    Now this look like an invinsible army, but you can still pick it to pieces by targeting special units, outmanouvering it and remember each time he have an army made of only giants you should be able to field at least two of your own armies


    this isn't like a finished race or anything, just me trying to show that we can make a balanced giant army with alot of flavour in it.
    Last edited by Frederik Hugger; 04-06-2013 at 10:33 AM.

  10. #10
    Very interesting ideas. I like the concept of the Nordic culture, but I think the following cold might make balance difficult (it is flavorful however.) Of course, if they were from the poles of the plane of water that could explain it. The units may need some tweaking. I think half-giants would be a better lore fit than "young giants". Either way, we'll see what the community thinks

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