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Thread: High Men Units

  1. #11
    Moderator Asmodai's Avatar
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    My suggestion to keep things as simple as possible for city produced versions of units would be to:
    ditch familiars for wizards/sorcerers.
    make druids pick a light warhorse or other appropriate mount for that race as their animal companion (so the unit is just mounted but gets the animal companion stat boost/abilities)
    start rangers as a foot unit but at level 4 when they get their animal companion make them mounted just like the druids. (or start them with light warhorses or appropriate mounts and add the stat/ability boost as level 4)
    start paladins with a normal heavy warhorse then add it's special mount bonuses starting at level 5. (not sure how high regular units even advance)

    On hero and champion versions of Rangers and Druids instead of the above they could have something like a spell where once per tactical combat they can "cast" animal companion and it prompts them with a list of choices based on their level and such. The resulting animal has the appropriate bonuses for an animal companion but just lasts for that combat (so you can change animals each time you fight and it doesn't ever show up on the world map)

    For hero and champion Paladins depending on what level they come to you at you could give them various different "special mounts". This wouldn't be something you could change after you get them but there could be pre-made Paladins with Pegasi, Gryphons, Giant Eagles, etc. as mounts and if there are procedurally generated Paladins they could have various different mount options as well. Again though, you get what they come to you with.

    No idea how to do familiars... they tend to be small creatures, having them die is BAD, and they can't be immediately replaced so I lean toward dropping them even from Heros/Champions though again, magic is not my thing and I rarely play arcane spell casters so perhaps those that do would REALLY like to see them in.

  2. #12
    Moderator Asmodai's Avatar
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    More assumptions for confirmation:

    Spearman, Swordsman, Archers, and Cavalry are all NPC Warrior class.
    Clerics, Wizards, and Paladins are all obviously those PC Classes.
    Halberdiers I'm assuming are fighters, only because I see them as replacements for "Pikemen" from MoM which came from the Fighter's Guild (I would think any unit depending on the Fighter's Guild building or up would be PC classes)
    Crossbowmen I assume are likewise Fighters and have the Rapid Reload feat for light crossbows so they can fire twice like archers.

  3. #13
    OK, let me address this with a broad brush, lol.

    The classes and levels and number of members in a unit are all going to be set according to the "tier" that we're trying to fill with the unit. Take paladins as the example. A single level one paladin with appropriate equipment would be tier one. He might be able to take out a unit of spearmen, but he would probably get killed. A single level ten paladin with appropriate equipment would be a tier ten unit. Multiple paladins would change this dynamic.

    Each unit is going to have several facets that determine where they fit into the game. Paladins will be a the High Men's tier 10 unit. Don't expect them to be level one. A "level one" paladin unit may have four level five paladins in it. I hope you see what I mean.

    Familiars... just not sure what to do... They will probably get axed and some other generic benefit put in their place. As you point out, it's devastating if they die, lol.

  4. #14
    Moderator Asmodai's Avatar
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    I guess the easiest thing is to say I like the names of the units, rofl. The list looks good to me. That is to say there isn't something I would consider an iconic human unit that I don't see.

    That said it seems to really get a strong grasp on the list I'd have know the classes, levels, equipment, and number of characters in a unit. What roles they are intended to fill. How they stack up against other units, etc. That's probably WAY too much to put in a post so some of that I'll get from a span of posts (one per army list apparently) and some of it I'll likely just have to wait to play in order to find out and that's fine. I'm going to suck up as much info as you are willing to divulge, I'm a info sponge like that, so if you tried to give me every bit of detail I WANTED you'd never get a line of code written, rofl. I'm happy with however far you want to go though.

    In general though I assume the first unit (besides settlers and engineers) is going to be the starting combat unit like the spearman from MoM (and in this case of high men this remains spearman but may be different for other races).
    Because they are pre barracks I assume that means they will be warriors only (multiple characters per unit) and use primarily non-metal (pre-smithy) weapons and armor (typically light, though in the case of dwarves maybe medium hide armor would make sense pre smithy.) Additionally I assume the weapons these units will use will tend to be simple ones as opposed to martial ones. Not saying all this will be true for every faction but that's the "role" the base unit fills, cheap, easy to build, not the best trained but available early.

    If you do decide to make paladins depend on the player actually acting "good" (however you decide to implement good vs. evil) and thus you want to substitute them in the High Man list for a unit they can always make my suggestion would be to make a "Knight" unit. This may differ from cavalry in that cavalry are warriors with chainmail whereas knights are fighters in Half or Full plate. (as you said the levels and numbers can be tweaked to fit the slot)

  5. #15
    As is often the case, your assumptions are right on the money. The base spearmen are going to be warriors. Easy to train and using light equipment.

    If we implement the whole good/evil mechanic there will probably end up being paladins/knights/blackguards or some dynamic like that. This would add a bit of work to the final product. Thus, it may have to wait for DLC.

    We'll be dishing out more and more info as time goes by

  6. #16
    Moderator Asmodai's Avatar
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    Upon further thought if the spearman unit is using longspears I would suggest the unit be renamed pikemen. A longspear is a pike, I'm not sure why D20 calls it a longspear but that would clear up at least some of the confusion between units that may have the different types of swords. I do find it a bit odd that pikemen are a starting unit though and high men have both pikemen and halberdiers (two types of pole arms) but it's not a big deal.

    Again the alignment system is a big question mark for me but I really do like the idea of having the heavy mounted unit for humans change based on if the controlling wizard is good or evil (assuming these states are dynamic based on the actions of the wizard and not hard coded). So when you build a cathedral or whatever building makes them you get Paladins if you are "good", Knights if you are "Neutral", and Blackguards if you are "Evil". Paladins and Blackguards are more powerful than knights but if your actions cause you to go from Good to Neutral your paladins leave you and likewise if your actions cause you to go from Evil to Neutral your Blackguards leave you. The Knights while perhaps weaker are more stable as knights you've built stay with you no matter how your alignment changes. Just a thought.

  7. #17
    Archmage of the Central Tower Happerry's Avatar
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    I'd just like to say I don't like the idea of your responses to random events and stuff changing your alignment and maybe making all your top level units randomly abandon you. I'd prefer to just stick with Paladins and let the undead have the blackguards/antipaladins.

    This is probably because the majority of alignment effecting events I've seen in a strategy game come from galactic civilization, and can effectively be summed up as "Good=Get nothing, pay lots", Neutral "Get some, Pay less", and Evil "Get Lots, Pay Nothing."

    (And while somewhat off topic to this thread, I'm really hoping that if random events do give options depending on some alignment stat, good doesn't get translated as pants on head retarded verses the other options)

  8. #18
    Moderator Asmodai's Avatar
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    My idea want based off of random events. The alignment effecting actions would be things you do during the course of normal play. for example if you conquer and then raze a city of neutral halflings that might be an evil act. Not some contrived multiple choice dialog window that just randomly pops up. Also Blackguard/AntiPaladin are not related to undead, they are Demonic in nature so if we want to bring them in and my alignment based idea isn't taken then perhaps the Drow would be a better fit.
    Back on the alignment thing though it just really annoys me that you can have a stack of Paladins running around slaughtering everything in their path (elf, dwarf, other high men players, angels, etc.) and razing entire cities with no consequence. I'm not saying one incident should force you to lose everything but if there is a continued pattern there should be some consequence. Heck, we can then have attonement quests, rofl

  9. #19
    Archmage of the Central Tower Happerry's Avatar
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    Still don't like randomly loosing your top tier units because you are winning a war against a neutral player.

  10. #20
    Arcane Candidate
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    EDIT: Shifting my question to to a general questions thread.

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