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Thread: Metamorphosis (Custom Races)

  1. #21
    if i understood it correctly, we will get:

    1. races
    2. subcultures of the races with addons/dlcs or right away through stretch goals
    3. highly customizable sorcerors

    I agree with Aldadron that races should be fixed.
    I think making races customizable would result in too much thought put into balancing things.
    Personally i would prefer to have fixed subcultures as well.
    I like the idea from Kahn to allow for choosing some minor perks for pre definded and fixed subcultures though.e.g. like every subculture is allowed to choose from a few different starting perks,defined by the devs.
    Imo its enough to be able to customize the leader together with choices for starting hero and such.
    To me,customizable races are much more important and fitting to space 4x games .
    Usually these games are lacking Leader customization options because e.g. there is no magic system.
    Last edited by Mardagg; 04-18-2013 at 03:08 PM.

  2. #22
    Moderator Aldaron's Avatar
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    No, no, I never said that races should be fixed. I like races customization, I like it so much that I only played custom races in most games that allow them.

    What I said is that some features should be paired with the races graphics. So Undead graphics also get you no taxes and population that consumes mana. But you can change other stuff picking abilities.
    “We don’t stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.”

    George Bernard Shaw

  3. #23
    ah,ok,i thought you meant fixed races with their paired non standard abilities and then a wide range of custom abilities to choose from to make custom subcultures.

  4. #24
    Sorcerer of the Lesser Tower Morak's Avatar
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    1. Do we worry about trying to maintain balance? No. In fact there are times I was to steamroll in a game. Other times I like a challenge.
    2. Should the custom race have custom graphics or just use one of the other race's graphics?Just give us a choice of which standard race's graphics to use.
    3. If we just use another race's graphics should we keep the normal version of that race out of a game where you're using a custom version of it? No. I can see more than one of any given race in a game
    4. Should the AI be able to use the custom races you've made? No. I think custom races should be for the players.
    5. Do we allow custom races in tournaments? That could be decided on a tournament setting level. Allow custom races y / n?
    6. Should there be independent cities of your custom race spawned in the game? Although I am not against this idea my gut says no.
    7. Should custom races in the pool end up in a game even if you're using a standard race? No.
    8. Should combat and non-combat bonuses be kept separate or should you be able to spend all your points on just one or the other? In MOO2 you could spend points where you wished. Based upon the number of points you had plus any weaknesses.
    9. Should there be any limit on the number of negative effects you can take or should you be able to take them all and make both the best and worst race in history. There probably should be a limit.
    10. Do we put a story limit on some bonuses? I think customization process is external to the story. If you were sticking to the story your would not allow customizations.

  5. #25
    I think the love is increasing. Keep in mind, if we add this it will probably be post release and completely optional.

    Aldaron, you make an excellent point. You would need to pick a base race and tweak it. It's going to require a bit of thought. I think it's squarely on the DLC shelf for the moment. Still, I like the idea and would love to see it in future. It's just going to take a bit of work

  6. #26
    Apprentice
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    Hi all, exciting questions!
    I always use custom Wizard in MoM and custom race in Moo2.
    I will always use custom Wizard in WoM.
    Would I love to have some race-customization as well? Absolutely!

    1) Yes, but just "good enough", don't spend too many resources trying to obtain some obsessive degree of perfection
    2) Just use existing race gfx
    3) No - if I'm playing Trolls, it would be great to come up against another sub-race of Trolls (and then crush & assimilate them...)
    4) No, or let me toggle Yes/No for every race (and eventually just delete the ones I don't want to see anymore)
    5) Yes (as long as the ability to turn them off is there, as you say)
    6) No - similar to #3, I prefer to think of my own sub-race as the ultimate evolution of my race, and don't want to see it anywhere except working for me.
    7) No, or provide switch.
    8) One big pool of options, let me decide how to spend my points
    9) Maybe this should be one of your "house rules" or user-set parameters, with some default value which makes it similar to Moo2 (lots of flexibility but not infinite)
    10) Yes! ...and then how about a cheap racial advantage called "Adaptive" which lets your custom race disregard all the story restrictions!

  7. #27
    Mage’s Assistant baenre's Avatar
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    It seems that this has been put on a backburner for awhile and that is ok with me, but I wanted to put in my 2 cents.

    I'm ok with the game never having race customization, but I know I would love the feature just like I do when I play Moo2, Endless space, and Master of Magic (there is an editor you can find that allows you to edit all races, i.e. number of figures in any unit, all attributes, costs, prerequisites, buildings, worker/farmer stats. Trolls with alchemists guild and adamantium weapons because your are up against 8 figure paladins from Horus, go for it!)

    If/when this does make it into the game, here is my response:

    1.) Do we worry about trying to maintain balance? I think you should, something similar to the balance required with Moo2, a starting amount of points with customizations either using points or adding points with less points used culminating in a higher score like Moo2. Further I agree with a previous poster, let the player go beyond negative, making whatever custom race they choose, but if their race ends up in the negative, it is not viable for achievements, score or something.

    2.) Should the custom race have custom graphics or just use one of the other race's graphics? I think custom graphics would be nice, but not necessary at all. just pick an existing race to start from.

    3.) If we just use another race's graphics should we keep the normal version of that race out of a game where you're using a custom version of it? sure, no problem with 2 wizards having high men in MoM, shouldn't be a problem here

    4.) Should the AI be able to use the custom races you've made? YES!

    5.) Do we allow custom races in tournaments? No, with a chance that if someone makes a well liked race or something, maybe contests can be done, that wasteland interactive could adopt it and push it out as an official "custom" race.

    6.) Should there be independent cities of your custom race spawned in the game? Yes

    7.) Should custom races in the pool end up in a game even if you're using a standard race? (Should we provide a switch for that option?) Yes, and yes with the switch, I would even like a switch that forces use just custom races in the random pick. (side question, will we be able to pick what race our opponents are in this game?)

    8.) Should combat and non-combat bonuses be kept separate or should you be able to spend all your points on just one or the other? I think they should all come from the same pool. You could spend all your points making the perfect warrior race (Sontaran's from Dr. Who anyone?) but they probably won't be very industrious or have slower population growth.

    9.) Should there be any limit on the number of negative effects you can take or should you be able to take them all and make both the best and worst race in history. I'm torn on this, I think having a limit would make it much easier to keep a semblance of balance. I would default to if you take your negative traits past a certain point, you don't get achievements/score bonus in that game.

    10.) Do we put a story limit on some bonuses. (You can't choose Undead and Diplomatic, or whatever.) I would say no, but that might just be me. I would enjoy playing a game as diplomatic undead,(perhaps with built in penalty to diplomacy) where I convince ai to ally with me as I slowly corrupt their worlds.

  8. #28
    Mage’s Assistant baenre's Avatar
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    After thinking about this overnight I had an idea. To me, Race Customization doesn't need to be very detailed at all to make an impact. Since we are already heavily using D20 for units, I think you could quite easily have a small template, for example:

    Elves: all elven units get: +2 Dex, -2 Con, immune to sleep, base speed 30 ft, slow population -10 a turn, .5 power a turn

    with these stats, I could make a custom race

    Jay's Wild Elves: +2 Dex, +2 Str, -2 Con, -2 Wis, base speed 30 ft, normal population growth,

    If you did something like this, you would need to think ahead as well. i.e. if I give all of my race -2 intelligence and +2 str, my higher tier wizards may have less power but my earlier spearman/swordsman will hit harder.

  9. #29
    I like FE's version, but it feels pretty limited. With that said, their base races are pretty boring as well.

    I like the base idea that an "Undead" faction has base things that make it an "Undead" faction. From that point you can customize certain items.

    Keep the customizable items as simple as possible and as standard as possible. Maybe 3 or 4 modifications allowed, with 4 or 5 allowed if a weakness or two is picked.

    Then maybe down the line start introducing some heavier customizations on a different point pool - maybe 1 benefit for 1 negative.
    i.e. Undead insects - Undead exoskeleton adds +4 armor (as long as +4 is BIG) BUT movement reduced by 50%.
    Undead Draconian - Loses ability to fly (and additional movement) and breath fire, but each unit gains a +X strength magic AOE cloud attack

    Undead Bonecasters - Starts with X units, cannot produce any new units. Cannot settle cities (maybe) Each unit is relatively powerful to very strong.
    Would make a badass faction I think.

    Hill dwarves, mountain dwarves, forest dwarves (could happen!), snow dwarves, etc

    All 3 orc choices as "flavors"

    Again, keeping the VAST majority simple, just adding a couple options so you can change basic parameters but then add a "flavor". That flavor will be game changing, but should be in terms of gameplay.

  10. #30
    Moderator Aldaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baenre View Post
    After thinking about this overnight I had an idea. To me, Race Customization doesn't need to be very detailed at all to make an impact. Since we are already heavily using D20 for units, I think you could quite easily have a small template, for example:

    Elves: all elven units get: +2 Dex, -2 Con, immune to sleep, base speed 30 ft, slow population -10 a turn, .5 power a turn

    with these stats, I could make a custom race

    Jay's Wild Elves: +2 Dex, +2 Str, -2 Con, -2 Wis, base speed 30 ft, normal population growth,

    If you did something like this, you would need to think ahead as well. i.e. if I give all of my race -2 intelligence and +2 str, my higher tier wizards may have less power but my earlier spearman/swordsman will hit harder.
    No, it doesn't have to be very detailed, but it helps.

    There's also another problem with your proposal to consider. Worlds of Magic, being a turn based strategy game, won't use some of the stats as much as a regular tabletop roleplaying game. So if Charisma was usually a dump stat in D&D here it can be easily abused and you could end up with races that look like this: +4 srt +4 dex +4 con -4 int -8 cha (Intelligence would also be a dump stat since you only use it for wizards while you use the rest of the stats for every unit, plus you don't use skills anymore). We have to be very carefull with this kind of powergaming.
    “We don’t stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.”

    George Bernard Shaw

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