WoM And The Seven Dwarves (Dwarven Units)

[Aaron]

Alright, this post, as I'm sure you already know, is to share the tentative list of dwarven units with you. So, here's the list:

Axe-Dwarves
Crossbow-Dwarves
Berzerkers
Wizards
Clerics
Axe Lords
Boar Riders
Catapults
Dwarven Defenders

You'll notice a couple of things right away. First, there are a couple of different ax units. Second, there are only nine in the list. Third, it could use a dash more flavor.

This is a chance to jump in and make some very good points about how the dwarves should taste! (Running with my idea of flavor guys.) How do you see the dwarves as a faction? How should this come across in their units? What do you like about our list? What don't you like? What do you want to add? What do you want to take out?

This is close to an open page guys. Fill it out.

Obviously we have our own ideas about dwarves and dwarven culture, but we want to see what you guys think.

So.... say something!

P.S. - I forgot to put settlers and engineers at the top of the list. They're there obviously

[John Madlock]

Their settlers can be decent fighters. They can have some battle or battle-working machines (steam or gunpowder). They should be turtling-banking slow faction.

[Asmodai]

I don't like the idea of boar riders. I find the notion of a dwarf sitting on a boar down right silly. I also don't see boars as particularly trainable nor do I see dwarves as particularly nature friendly to train what otherwise may be untrainable (to humans). I know the idea is to give them some sort of cavalry but I really don't think they NEED cavalry and I think the weakness created by not having it can be offset by giving them greater strengths in other areas.

One such area where I'd like to see them with greater strength is city siege. I don't like the idea of catapults (they're made out of wood!) but would rather see something like a steam cannon or rune cannon or something. This should be the best siege weapon in the game because this is where Dwarves excel. Additionally along the lines John Madlock suggested I'd like to see dwarven engineers actually be combat capable units (instead of the settlers he suggested). This further enhances their siege ability. Maybe arm them with heavy picks (think miners), metal armor, and shields. Possibly even tower shields to cover their approach to the wall since they move slower than non-dwarven engineers.

Due to their lack of cavalry (assuming boar riders are dropped) I think it's extremely important for dwarves have a unit that can set vs. charge. Dwarven Halberdiers makes the most sense to me because Halberd means "Staff Axe" and it fits the axe theme.

I'm also not a fan of Dwarf Wizards. While there may not be anything in D20 that prevents a dwarf from being a wizard (and I'm fine with Dwarf Wizard Heroes and Champions) they aren't something I see Dwarves producing as a culture. Dwarven culture tends to shun arcane magic in my mind (though divine magic is fine). If you absolutely must have an arcane Dwarf caster then my suggestion would be to try to come up with some sort of Rune magic/enchanter. This isn't in standard D20 but let's face it, you've reworked the entire rest of magic system why not a little tweaking here.

I'm not sure what Berzerkers are but I like the idea of a Barbarian PC class unit with maybe a big two handed Great Axe.
I'd like to see units work in the Dwarven WarAxe and Dwarven Urgrosh. You might already have those in but I can't tell from just the unit names.
I'd like to see at least one dwarf unit with a warhammer. Maybe the cleric has this to represent the hammer and anvil of their forge god?

I'd like to see at least one unit with thrown weapons. If you go with the Rune/Enchanter type in place of a Wizard maybe instead of using some spell (since they don't cast in a traditional sense) they are armed with enchanted throwing axes or light hammers of returning (so shorter range then normal ranged weapons but unlimited ammo since the weapon returns after being thrown)

As mentioned in other threads I'd also like to see Iron or Stone Golems at the top of the Dwarf Army List.

[Aldaron]

It's a good list. I like Asmodai suggestion to change the wizards to runecasters or enchanters of some kind.

I do like the idea of boar riders, this is a fantasy game, if elves can ride a non-existant flying horse then dwarfs can ride a boar! Plus GORE attacks. Dwarfs don't all live under the mountain and they need wood whether they like it or not. I any case I agree that a Steam Cannon would be more flavourfull that a catapult. The golems could also be used as a siege weapon throwing rocks.

Axe throwers would also be cool. And YES to bersekers. But how would you play, mechanically, their out-of-control behaviour?

[Trudd]

IMO, wizard should not be in that list. Clerics are the only magic user of the dwarves.

To make them different from the others, why don't make them master of technology?
I think they should have cannon (rotative cannon to have a better pace), musquets (or an other firegun?), and why not a cavalery of steam/mecanical horses?
I know, it's not the D20 rules, but it would differentiate them very much!

[Asmodai]

I do like the idea of boar riders, this is a fantasy game, if elves can ride a non-existant flying horse then dwarfs can ride a boar!

Well in my mind non-existant elves can ride non-existant flying horses because they are animals and elves have a great affinity to plants and animals (thus the ranger and druid units). Besides the fact that the non-existant dwarves, especially in heavy armor, would likely be too heavy for boars (which are the only REAL creature we're even talking about here) dwarves have no such affinity to animals. If humans in the real world can't train and ride boars why would dwarves be able to? If boars made good mounts don't you think some culture in the history of humanity would have given it a try... you know like the great pig riders of Rome. Does that mean a dwarf can't ride a boar, maybe they can, just like a human might be able to but I just don't see them as a unit that cities pump out and form military units with. Keep in mind also that you aren't stuck with the forces of one race. So when you play the game if you start as dwarves it's not like you can never have any mounted units because of it if there are no boar riders... just take over a human city and pump out all the cavalry you want. I don't believe there is anything stopping you from having a stack with elven pegasi riders, dwarven infantry, and human cavalry. Heck throw in a Dwarven hero/Champion unit riding a dire boar as a quirky hero unit or something, I'm all for that.

---------- Post added at 02:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:12 PM ----------

If I had to assign a fantasy race to riding boars (Dire boars really in D20 as boars aren't but so big). I'd say it's a better fit for Orcs. While they don't have an affinity towards animals like elves do, orcs are often depicted with pig-like noses, tusks, and their preferred class barbarian rage is similar to a boars hostility and "Ferocity" special ability.

[Aaron]

If memory serves Skomp from Death Knights of Kyrnn was a mountain dwarf who used a boar as a mount. So, it's not a completely new idea. Still, he was probably the exception, not the rule, lol. And, I agree that they don't necessarily need cavalry. However, I still like the idea especially, for a hero. I think the idea of dwarves riding boars may come from the fact that they do get big enough and strong enough to carry a fully armored dwarf. Plus they're very aggressive. Anyways, we'll keep it in the think pile and get more feedback.

Combat ready engineers and rune cannons are cool ideas.

Dwarven Halberdiers do seem like a natural choice. I say we go with them.

Personally I like the wizards. Especially for WoM. To me it ties into their natural gifts for artifice. Their spell lists should be focused on spells that increase combat ability. Even their own. Still, I won't fly in the face of popular opinion. (Unless popular opinion goes in some goofy direction like making all the dwarves dress as santa's elves...)

Berserkers are basically Barbarians who can rage on the battlefield. I almost explained that this morning. We'll have to wait and see about the “out of control” element. Play testing!

The dwarvish weapons may make it in. I don't think it would be a problem to add them

We plan to give some of the units throwing axes. We have to fit them in place before we do that.

I think golem are going to make it in, but I wanted you guys to mention is first, lol.

Some tech touch could be good. It is a common enough idea. Blunderbusses or steam cannons may be in order.

I think the lean is going to be for wolf riders for the Orcs. We'll see how it goes.

[Asmodai]

Perhaps I misspoke. Dwarf boar riders have been used in other games so it's not a crazy idea. In fact I think they are adding them into the new Hobbit movies and they made it into at least one game based off of it though I don't believe they exited in the actual books. Doing a google search does find miniatures of dwarves mounted on boars so it has definitely been done before, I'm just saying I PERSONALLY don't like them and trying to argue my case to not have them in because I just personally find them silly. That said it's your call and if you and/or the masses say they REALLY want boar riders then by all means put them in. I tried to at least offer the compromise suggestion of using a boar mounted dwarf as a pre-made hero/champion unit I also didn't mean to suggest that Goblin Worg riders be replaced by Orc boar riders, I love goblin Worg riders! I don't want boar riders at all, I was just saying if I HAD to associate boars with a fantasy race it would be orcs, not dwarves, but again I prefer not to have boar riders at all.

I'd like to see arcane magic represented in Dwarves via runes and/or crafting but that doesn't really show up in a spell caster unit on the battlefield. In my mind dwarves love of metal goes against a robe wearing mage and arcane spell failure and their magic resistance (bonus to savings throws against spells and spell-like effects) further pushes them away form arcane spell casting. I'm not sure what the magic item creation system for the game is but giving a wizard (player) some sort of bonus in that if they choose dwarf as their starting race might be a nice way to offset the lack of wizards. Maybe when you place their starting city during map generation they could have a better chance than normal to have special ore deposits nearby. Again though Dwarf wizards could likewise be represented by a pre-made main wizard who specializes in earth magic and artificer trait as well as even dwarven wizard heroes and champions.

I'm actually not a big fan of gunpowder in fantasy games. My preference would be for the devices to be explained by dwarven specific rune magic (though the end result could be similar) or if all else fails steam (in homage to MoM's steam cannon). The key here for the cannon is that it's made primarily out of metal and it's a stronger then the wooden constructs of other races.

[Aaron]

Gotya! We'll leave boar riders to the will of the people, lol.

I do see what you're saying about the Wizards and I'll give it a think.

I also prefer the runic to gunpowder, but gunpowder is the more common. Again, we'll see which way popular opinion falls.

[Aldaron]

I would avoid gunpowder like the plague, steam cannons seem more "fantastic".