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Thread: Mana Points and spell scalability

  1. #21
    Moderator Aldaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asmodai View Post
    Perhaps I'm missing something. If a player focuses on Destruction then they have to pay the distance penalty to cast in combat. If a you focus on summoning and you summon on a remote battlefield you pay the distance penalty as well. If you summon close to your capital then you have to first have the foresight to do so enough in advance to move your units to the remote battlefield AND you have to pay the mana maintenance cost all summoned units should have for the entire travel time
    (or a bunch of mana to use a movement spell to get the unit to the remote battle). Either way if it's balanced properly the maintenance/travel cost should be roughly equivalent to the distance cost so there is no big advantage one way or the other... again, unless I'm missing something.
    I think you are right, but MoM didn't charge you more mana when you summoned a creature far from your capital from your summoning circle, that could be changed however.

    The other problem I see is that buff spells cast from the world map won't pay more, so that could be an issue.
    “We don’t stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.”

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  2. #22
    Bobthe6th, we may have to look into that! Thanks for the link

    Asmodai, the point is that you can play as a summoner and summon up an entire army right at your capital and then move them around the world with no penalty. Now, as Aldaron pointed out we could add a maintenance penalty, but that could shift the balance to far the other way. You may be right and it might not matter that much, I'm just trying to foresee problems before they come up. If you cast the summoning spell on the battlefield you would have to pay the penalty, obviously... Anyways, it may not be a big hole it balance, but it might be... play testing...

  3. #23
    Moderator Asmodai's Avatar
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    I believe that ALL summoned units that remain from turn to turn should have at least a 1 mana per turn maintenance cost. If it is a summoned unit you didn't train them and they didn't join voluntarily so you should have to continue to spend mana to keep them from returning from whence they came and to bind them to your will. For some reason I thought the mana upkeep for summoned units was already in MoM but apparently not. I like the mana upkeep conceptually by itself but it also happens to work nicely as an offset to the distance penalty.

  4. #24
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    Mana upkeep for summoned units was indeed in MOM, but only on strategic turns. During the battle turns, it didn't cost any more to have a fire elemental on the field(after you paid for it to be summoned).
    What Aldraron said has to do with the actualy first summoning of the unit. During battle, the cost of spells is checked from how far away they are from your Wizard Tower. During the map turn, there's no such penalty. Summons only appear where you have your summoning circle, which may be on another plane, but that doesn't make them any more expensive to first summon nor upkeep later on.

  5. #25
    Moderator Asmodai's Avatar
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    Ok I guess I'm just really slow on this. I still don't see what the issue is then. Let me recap:

    If you are destruction mage you will have to pay a distance penalty to cast your destruction spells in tactical combat in a remote battlefield.
    If you are a summoner you will have to pay the same distance penalty to cast your summon spells in tactical combat in a remote battlefield.
    If you are a summoner and you are able to plan in advance you can summon a unit ahead of time at your summoning circle (outside of tactical combat) then move those units from your summoning circle to the remote battlefield. During that time you'll have to pay mana maintenance on your summoned units but once you get to the battle you will not have to pay a distance penalty. My point is that you have essentially already paid a distance penalty due to the fact you've been paying the mana upkeep for the summoned units during the turns it took to get to the remote battlefield and/or spent mana on movement spells used to transport them from your summoning circle to the remote battlefield. Additionally you've had to have more foresight in being able to prepare and position these units in advance. I see that as already balanced.

    I'm sorry if it seems I'm just restating the same thing over and over but I just don't understand what advantage summoners supposedly get. Just because there is no distance penalty for pre-summoned creatures during tactical combat isn't necessarily an advantage because you had to know to pre-summon them and where to position them. They were summoned only at your summoning circle where you then had to march them to the distant battlefield (which takes more time and/or mana) and you've had to pay mana maintenance on them during this time.

    I agree the balance likely has to be tweaked through play testing but these things SHOULD balance out... right???

  6. #26
    in mom,most units were only summonable at your summoning circle and not during tactical battles.
    the best units have been only summoable this way .If you wanted to get some real "hard hitters" u had to plan ahead.
    During Battles,some creatures could be summoned that would disappear after the battle and this mostly was with creatures you could not summon at your summoning circle anyway,like phatasmal warriors or beasts.
    In General ,there is no real way to compare a battle mage focused on destruction magic and a summoner ,focused on summoning units outside from battles.Because these summoned units do a have additional advantages,outside of battles,like serving defensive purposes or just making it possible through sheer numbers to conquer that particular city or node early on.
    Keep in mind,that in each battle you could only cast so much spells ,depending on your casting skill.But if you planned ahead u could form whole armies of summoned creatures that would have been worth like 10 times or more the casting skill you could use during battles.

    The summons that are battle-only should be balanced with the other battles spells.And thats about it.
    For balancing outside battle summons,i would much rather look at unit enchantments that also have a mana upkeep and see how it balances out,i.e. do i summon a creature or much rather buff an existing unit with stone skin,etc....

  7. #27
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    Random thought, remeber the fall from heaven mod for civ 4? well, it was a fantasy mod, and it featured spell casting... and the main spell was fireball. It summoned a fire ball unit that lasted for one turn. That might be the idea, offer short term summons that only last for a few rounds in combat, or only a turn out of combat.

    also, will the magical skill thingemy be in place? the limit on number of pp you can drop in a single fight. That was a very nice mechanic in MoM.

    also, will the wizard have a caster level?

  8. #28
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    Surely you could just have some sort of "perk" or something that can be gained from an artifact or such? one thing I've noticed in your magical terms is that all you get are spells, maybe you can introduce perks for the spells you use in that school, say for instance the summoning one has a penalty for summoning in battle, with enough points into the tree you can eliminate this cost, or you could increase the amount of summons you get per spell, it's a choice thing maybe that's the route to go if there's a lot of disagreement about summoning penalties
    Limit of the thousands hands, respectful hands, unable to touch the darkness. Shooting hands unable to reflect the blue sky. The road that basks in light, the wind that ignited the embers, time that gathers when both are together, there is no need to be hesitant, obey my orders. Light bullets, eight bodies, nine items, book of heaven, diseased treasure, great wheel, grey fortress tower. Aim far away, scatter brightly and cleanly when fired

  9. #29
    Asmodai, you're right in that it's going to come down to play testing, lol. We can run with the penalty and see how balancing goes. Of course, how great should the penalty be across planes?

    Bobthe6th, WoM will have "skill" (whatever we end up calling it) and it basically acts as your caster level. That is to say it limits how much magic you can bring to the battlefield or cast per turn out of battle.

    James, we do have "perks" (if I understand what you mean). We call them "disciplines". You'll be able to pick some when you create a wizard and you can find items in game that will give them to you as well.

  10. #30
    well probably not much better, but age of wonders, didn't have incrised spell cost depending on distance, but range where you can cast it. Only some distance from wizard if out of town with wizard tower (player had simbolic presence on battlefield, only matter if capital is under siege i guess). If player is in city with tower, he can cast spell any where of his cities with tower(3 levels of tower, every have biiger range + building that increase range of city), captured magical relay, i think allied player's cities and towns with towers also count, and in radius of 1 from heroes (magical helmet/cap can have magical relay ability for better range), and shadow demons have creature (brain) that have magic relay ability.

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