View Poll Results: Which Orcish Culture Do You Prefer?

Voters
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  • Honorable Horde

    4 25.00%
  • Barbarian Horde

    6 37.50%
  • Noble Tribes

    7 43.75%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: The Great Orc Debate

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Happerry View Post
    What, you don't think the Aztecs and Mayans were 'vicious and unforgiving'? Utterly disagreed on the raze thing, too. That's not interesting, that's just unfun, and means you can't expand by any way besides settlers, which would suck.
    First, making every faction play the same way is boring. So suggesting that one have a different way of expanding and conquering is cool. How do you know razing cities wouldn't be fun? What if in the process of razing, a new orc city/outpost was established in the razed one's place? Also, if city spam is limited, like many people want, it seems like something that could be playtested. What has been suggested so far is that orcs are almost like the other races, except they are kinda like pre-colonial South American tribes.

    Second, haven't the Native American tribes been exploited enough? Orcs are always portrayed in fantasy lit. as this undersireable "other." They are the low educated brutes of that genre. This is fine, for the most part IMO, because they are generally represented as having cultures analagous to the European barbarian tribes- often the Anglo-Saxons. But to change this race to having Western Hemisphere noble savage themes and pit them against multiple races with Western European themes just revives the atrocities of the past as something that was okay and reinforces old stereotypes. I'm not sure how comfortable I am with that. The wizards in MoM like Jafar or Oberic were fine, IMO, because they were presented as one among equals. They were just as powerful, educated, and feared as the others. Completely opposite of the stereotypes.

    Personally speaking, I think it would be best to stick to the Tolkein-esque presentation of orcs, create a new unique culture for them, or choose some European culture to model them after (Anglo-saxons is generally a good one, maybe Vikings). Especially since we all agree that they are a savage and brutal race. Consiquently, if the poll in this thread was still open, I'd definately vote barbarian horde over noble tribe.

  2. #22
    Archmage of the Central Tower Happerry's Avatar
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    Well, the vote isn't still open, and I find the idea that in a game where the idea is that you are a wizard lord that you would be limited to only one race, as your orc suggestions would have us be, annoying and limited myself. I also find your lack of belief that something based of native americans can win annoying, as well as thinking that if you don't like it when something based of a historical faction that lost gets put in the game, you aren't going to be liking much modern games.

    And while many people don't like city spam, we've had just as many people who vote against stupid limitations on it, so that's not something set in stone enough to use as an excuse.

  3. #23
    It's not at all that a Native American tribe should or shouldn't be able to win. It's not that at ALL! It's about putting a dark-skinned mythical race that has traditionally been treated as having a low intelect, high brutality, unsophisticated social structure in the place of a real-life group of people who have been unfairly and negatively stereotyped for centuries as being low intelect, brutal, and unsophisticated. Replacing "Indians" with orcs doesn't make the stereotype any more acceptable or less hurtful.

    And as for being limited to orcs, it seems like there will be plenty of independant cities in this game with ways to get them to join your side through diplomacy (unless I'm reading all the threads in the general discussion board the wrong way). The idea of razing cities (not mine originally btw) you conquer is just one facet of potential expansion. Diplomacy is another. For instance, read this, it's cool: http://forum.wastelands-interactive....kstarter-Titan

  4. #24
    Mage of the Inner Tower War Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnReeve View Post
    Personally speaking, I think it would be best to stick to the Tolkein-esque presentation of orcs, create a new unique culture for them, or choose some European culture to model them after (Anglo-saxons is generally a good one, maybe Vikings). Especially since we all agree that they are a savage and brutal race. Consiquently, if the poll in this thread was still open, I'd definately vote barbarian horde over noble tribe.
    Agreed. Heroes of Might and Magic VI went with the Orcs as Mesoamerican cultures and that was what, 18 months ago? It might be new but it isn't novel. I just don't think they fit the culture that well, in addition to HoMM6 making Orcs uninteresting (heresy!). Maybe Wasteland can give us a better interpretation though.

  5. #25
    I like the idea of the orcs getting a free village or outpost after razing. I also like the idea of bribing an independent city to join your side. I'm not sure that wil be in the game, though. It would be up to Aaron and the dev team. Oh, just to say, I'd vote barbarian horde too.

  6. #26
    Mage of the Lesser Tower devoncop's Avatar
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    Barbarian infighting horde every time.... Here's hoping.
    "There are only two things that are infinite:the universe and the stupidity of people....... and I am not sure about the universe" Albert Einstein

  7. #27
    Archmage of the Central Tower Happerry's Avatar
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    Eh, when I suggested Indians I meant the ones on the North American Great Plains, not sure why that was changed. Still not seeing it as something worth getting offended over unless you are major prickly.
    Last edited by Happerry; 04-30-2013 at 12:51 AM.

  8. #28
    Archmage of the Inner Ring ampoliros's Avatar
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    I would have preferred the classic interpretation as well. I'm actually a bit shocked such an important decision was made on just 16 votes. The Tolkien progression of Goblin->Orc->Uruk-Hai along with the sheer number of them is great. The people looking for different play style would have it with the (I hate that this is now common terminology ) zerg rush swarms of lower goblins and orcs. Most of the faction units would in my mind be inexpensive max-figure units with some warg rider and Uruk-Hai at the top. We'd have to have a different name for the Uruk-Hai, maybe Hobgoblin.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by devoncop View Post
    Barbarian infighting horde every time.... Here's hoping.
    The infighting idea got me thinking. How could you represent that in game without it being annoying? I don't care how good a unit is, having it go rogue on you would be a pain to deal with IMO. So, I thought about what other scenes from movies or books I associate with orc on orc violence. I was reminded of the scene in The Lord of the Rings movie (sorry, lol) The Two Towers where the Uruk \-Hai kill a normal orc and plan to eat him. Perhaps, the orcs are not so efficient at farming but still have good population growth. They could then have a building called a "butchery" where a player could sacrifice a city's population or units to add food to the stockpile. This would add a bit more uniqueness and some flavor to orcs. Of course, this is something we could definitely not do if Wasteland goes with the Aztec theme (which I think they shouldn't). That is something I think would be too over the line.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Happerry View Post
    Eh, when I suggested Indians I meant the ones on the North American Great Plains, not sure why that was changed. Still not seeing it as something worth getting offended over unless you are major prickly.
    Really? You didn't write this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Happerry View Post
    Not unless people want to take my Aztec Jungle Greenskins suggestion seriously. Giant Toad Monsters, Werejaguar Ogres, Hobgoblin Eagle Warriors, Cannibal Orc Berserks who hunger for the hearts of their foes, Ogre Mages riding on goblin carried palanquins, Obsidian armed goblin raiders, lizard-like cyclopes with tree trunks as clubs, Jaguar riding Hobgoblin Knights, crazed blood worshiping shamans, Harpy Eagle riding goblin archers, shapeshifting sorcerer kings...
    http://forum.wastelands-interactive....1514#post51514

    It seems like you're taking full credit for the Aztec idea in that post. Anyway, changing orcs from South American "indians" to North American Great Plains "indians" doesn't eliminate the cultural insensitivity. The very things you mention in that post I quote above have been used for generations to denigrate and belittle Native American culture. Any association with 'cannibal orc shaman from the bear lodge' is just flat out insensitive to the history of Native Americans and the injustice they suffered. Cannibals are fine. Shaman are fine. But cannibals + shaman + orcs = "indians!" is totally not fine. I'm trying to be opposite of prickly. I'm trying to make sure that anyone who would like to play this game isn't put off by hurtful cultural stereotyps.

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