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Thread: Idea: Lesser races.

  1. #1

    Idea: Lesser races.

    The hobbit debate as well as the city spam debate got me thinking, here is the outcome.

    "Lesser" races are creatures that are too impotent or unsophisticated to be considered the main forces of any respectable wizard. They can be very useful as an ally to flesh out a domain.

    While large cities are built by the "greater" races the lesser races are more in the countryside, scattered and fairly uncoordinated. As such you can effectively build many more of these settlements if you so choose. Direct control of these races are not really worth the effort, as such you can only suggest what they should focus on (troop making, growing or trade).

    The benefits: Lesser races go about their own business but contribute production, food, and gold towards close by cities. Additionally settlements are difficult for enemies to outright destroy or capture, they can only slowly dwindle their numbers every turn. Finally each lesser race contributes it's own special advantages, whether that is extra food production, or the occasional fame boost.

    The caveat, while the lesser races are fine with working with (or being dominated by) any combination of the greater races they will not work together as the wizard is not able to handle all of their petty land squabbles and differing ideologies.

    An example of a few lesser races and their abilities:

    Barbarians: decent production, decent food, decent trade, low growth good (but rare) troops. Barbarians like freedom and adventure, as such they often bring fame, find rare magic items, and sometimes just enjoy a good pillage.

    Hobbits: Great food, very low production, low trade, average growth, weak troops. Hobbits charming lifestyle often leads quite a few adventures to early retirement given their nature these heros often quickly come back out of retierment and wish to join your cause.

    Goblins: low food, low production, little trade, huge growth, weak but many troops. Hobbits are swarmers, any enemy near their settlements (or on) will be under constant (though just annoying) assault. Likewise killing an enemy within their territory will raise up more goblin armies for your use.

    There is a whole host of other lesser races that could be introduced, gnoll, lizard men, faerie. With each they would have their own special events related to them.

    Running short on time here so I'll open it up for discussion.

  2. #2
    This seems like it would be really hard to implement. I'm no coder, but that's a whole new level of complexity.

  3. #3
    Archmage of the Central Tower Happerry's Avatar
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    This sounds like Civ 5 neutral cities, only even more annoying then those stupid things.

    I vote against.

  4. #4
    Mage’s Assistant Belgariad87's Avatar
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    I feel like this is would be just amazing and really bring some of the fantasy world to life without going as in-depth as the "great" races, if implemented correctly. I'm not sure i totally agree with some of the things they do different than normal cities, but just having "neutral" mini-towns with various lesser races about the world could really be good for this game. Maybe make them only be able to make like 3 or 4 units ever, and even those are special/specific to that race and have to be built up to through some time and money via buildings (MoM ol' faithfuls). They would give maybe anything between 10% to 30% gold, food and production compared to a normal city.

    I really think Fantasy experts would appreciate the diversity having lesser races in would give. It at least gives the illusion there the world is more diverse. *thumbs up Swifty*
    Malleus the Magician + Fang the Draconian = OP

  5. #5
    I think it merits further discussion. It could be complex or we could make it a kind of world feature with limited city options. For instance there might be a settlement in the hills that offers a certain amount of food per turn, or can produce a certain unit, etc. We should think about it and give it a good debate IMO.

  6. #6
    Moderator Asmodai's Avatar
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    I don't really understand the point of a lesser race.
    First I'm sure many would argue race X or race Y is lesser.

    The examples of Hobbits, Barbarians, and Goblins all look like existing complete factions suggestions to me. Hobbits were in MoM and many other games as their own faction and while I'm not a fan of them I'm sure many, including Tolkien, would disagree with them as a "lesser" race. Even if Hobbits don't make the initial release and even not being a fan of them I'd like to seem them in the game eventually, as a complete faction. Barbarians is kind of a broad term but many factions beastmen, orcs, etc. that have been suggested could be seen as barbarians, goblins form the core of at least one of the orc suggestions on factions. In that suggestion we kind of use orc and goblin interchangeably (as Tolkien did) and the farmers, workers, low end combat unit, shaman, and cavalry (worg riders) are all goblins.

    The specific examples aren't THAT important though but the general concept is that any race you may call lesser now could be a strong candidate for eventual full faction DLC. I'd rather not term such future factions as lesser races and release them prematurely in a gimped form, that's just my opinion though. Unless I'm misunderstanding something here MoM had independent cities and as I understand it WoM will have at least that, possibly even expanded so I don't see the point is making special gimped races when you already have independent cities of the existing factions dotting the landscape. When the Halfling faction is added there will be independent Halfling cities, when the orcs are added there will be indepenet goblin/orc cities, etc. It's entirely possible I'm just missing something in the suggestion though.

    With an enhanced diplomacy model I hope we'll also be able to trade, form alliances, etc. with independent cities as well which would effectively do much of what you suggest without having a new mechanic or new gimped only races.

  7. #7
    Mage’s Assistant Belgariad87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
    I think it merits further discussion. It could be complex or we could make it a kind of world feature with limited city options. For instance there might be a settlement in the hills that offers a certain amount of food per turn, or can produce a certain unit, etc. We should think about it and give it a good debate IMO.
    i believe the simpler the better, but that may just be me. i think its not so much which race is really lesser, but just which would be more likely to be not very populous in the world. maybe we could make a more complex system in a lesser race DLC? pretty much every idea that isn't in the base game i've noticed just gets turned into "future DLC material". I don't know how many DLC's you guys are planning but i doubt its as many as have been said. i really think that keeping these neutral lesser race cities in the base game and then making a DLC expanding on their diplomacy is a good way to go. Really, the only reason i see lesser races for neutral cities is because i feel like you can have more of them for their reduced cost to make. if i'm wrong in that assumption by all means just do it MoM style.
    Malleus the Magician + Fang the Draconian = OP

  8. #8
    Mage of the Lesser Tower Rybon's Avatar
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    I think one of the problems with lesser races is it is like a tease. Especially if said 'lesser race' is a favorite of yours. To be able to see it and not play it. If you capture the city does it give the ability to produce units of that race? Does a lesser race city only grow so much. Is it limited to certain structures. I just look at lesser races as a huge way to cause discontent.


    I don't look at it as how many DLC become availabe as when will the DLC that allows race modablity, this give the community, the ability to do the things they want.

  9. #9
    Archmage of the Central Tower Happerry's Avatar
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    If we're going to have a race be added, just add the race, and don't bother with half way annoyances like lesser races. or such is my opinion.

  10. #10
    Alright, we can shelve the idea for now. I have some more thoughts, but they will wait, lol.

    And, frankly, we plan to have a stream of DLC content for potentially years to come. There's no reason to just stop work on a game because it's "successful enough". We can keep adding to it. It will be a way to generate revenue and keep us working to give you more and more game at a reasonable price.

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