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Thread: Unit Design - In General

  1. #1
    Archmage of the Inner Ring ampoliros's Avatar
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    Unit Design - In General

    The D20 Monster Manual so powerfully overshadows the existing unit design threads that there is a huge intimidation factor preventing actual constructive discussion from the entire community.

    I would like to see new threads pop up where the general framework for a unit gets hammered out by the entire community in a comfortable environment where all ideas are welcome and not instantly shot down as un-D20. Then, only at the point where the general framework is fleshed out, open the discussion to how to overlay D20 specifics on top of the framework.

    The ONLY reference to D20 I have seen Wastelands make is in reference to the combat system.
    Last edited by ampoliros; 05-29-2013 at 10:57 PM. Reason: cleaned up, posts 15 and 17 state my case

  2. #2
    Archmage of the Central Tower Happerry's Avatar
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    We use the monster manual because it already had balanced monsters rated for their power level, the very reason Wastelands is using the system in the first place. If you want to make new monster stat sheets, good for you, but they won't have the years of playtesting behind them that the D&D monsters have affirming that they are rated correctly.

  3. #3
    Archmage of the Inner Ring ampoliros's Avatar
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    Do you understand my point about the general impression of the unit design threads? There are not a lot of members posting there and I believe it's because they are intimidated into silence.

    What is so wrong with building new frameworks and possibly come up with new feats that simply do not exist in D20 (fire breath) ???

  4. #4
    Archmage of the Central Tower Happerry's Avatar
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    There isn't, and if someone else makes one and rates it in a way that looks proper, I'd happily use it. (Also, Fire Breath would be an ability, not a feat. Feat's are things like Cleave Attacks, or learning how to use your fire breath ability in new ways, like as a line instead of a cone, not gaining new abilities like a fire breath.)

    On the other hand, that's a lot of work, and it's just flat out simpler, as well as easier for other people to understand what I mean, if I just use the already there and balanced Unicorns that are in the SRD instead of making a new one up myself.

  5. #5
    Archmage of the Inner Ring ampoliros's Avatar
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    this is me beating my head against the wall...

  6. #6
    Archmage of the Central Tower Happerry's Avatar
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    Look, if you don't like the way we are using the premade, pre-balanced archive of units that Wastelands has already decided to use because it makes balancing easier, stop whining about how we are pointing out unicorns aren't top tier units because they weren't built as one, and make a top tier unicorn (Or whatever other monster is annoying you) and give it to us to argue about.

    Until then, stop complaining about people using the resources we have actually been given to plan things and make suggestions for.

  7. #7
    Archmage of the Inner Ring ampoliros's Avatar
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    I really hope Wastelands comes out and clears unit design up. Nothing I have read even slightly hints that their minds have been made up about a single unit yet. IF they are pulling literally from D20 (speaking strictly about units) I seriously have my reservations about WoM's future.
    Last edited by ampoliros; 05-29-2013 at 10:58 PM. Reason: cleaned up, posts 15 and 17 state my case

  8. #8
    Archmage of the Central Tower Happerry's Avatar
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    All monsters in D&D are balanced (or at least supposed to be). Haven't you ever heard of a challenge rating? And, no, unit design isn't free of the combat system, because units are what fight in the combat system. Claiming that it is free of the combat system is like claiming tank designers don't need to pay attention to the modern armies.

    Wasteland has decided to use DnD rules, including the SRD, which (Parts of) the Monster Manual is included in. It's in the background mechanistic wise , not being thrown in people's face, as mentioned in the Answers thread, but it's still using the D&D System for combat and units. This is shown in the High Men unit list thread when they talk about tiers and how Halberds, as written out in DnD rules, can be used to trip people, as well as that whole post basically being an affirmation that they are using DD equipment for units. (As well as the equipment thing being implicit in how they said that using the dwarves exotic weapons for the dwarf units means that they are using dnd rules for them)

    I can't really see how you can seriously claim that the systems are separate when we have mods confirming that spearmen are the NPC Warrior class, that units in general are using D&D classes, that elves got the unicorns because they were CR3 and that made suggesting them a good call.. Hell, we even have a moderator linking to the srd to show us a monster they are considering, we have another post in the same thread about using animated armor as a light golem stand in as it is a CR2 Construct, the confirmation here that units level up with the D&D system..

    And if you still have issues, you can go read the thread about why and how they are using the DnD system over here.

    But bluntly, if you keep trying to suggest people try to make units while ignoring the system the units work in...

    Well, You aren't going to get much people paying attention to you.

  9. #9
    Archmage of the Inner Ring ampoliros's Avatar
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    D&D is a co-op game, not a head-to-head game. No one I know plays strict to the source book. Every GM has house rules to fix the exploits his players have found. There is no balance in the base source book.

    The GM is the balance.

    Let us consider for the sake of argument that the playable races are balanced with one another. It still has no bearing on balancing factions of a 4X game for the following reasons:
    * Each faction needs to have an entire unit list of varying strength units. Unless they are all exactly the same just with different graphics, balance issues.
    * A faction is not just units, but also buildings, faction specials, etc... - balance issues.
    * The suggested factions so far all have monsters as part of the list. Monsters are developed differently than playable characters, balance issues.
    * Let us not forget that there are entire suggested factions without a single playable character in them, balance issues.

    The entire ball of wax that makes up a faction needs to be considered when balancing one faction vs. another. Wastelands was going to have to perform this juggling act from the beginning no matter what combat system was chosen.

    The D20 combat system is so separate from what units are chosen. You could have a space combat game using the D20 combat system (think Star Trek and how the Defiant was dodging and banking, etc...).

    None of the threads you linked to make any mention of doing a copy and paste of D20 units into WoM.

    D20 combat is not mutually exclusive with a spiritual successor to MoM.
    Copy and paste of D20 units is mutually exclusive with a spiritual successor to MoM.

    I have not once said I am against the D20 combat system or whatever abilities/feats a unit can have. I am against every unit being literally lifted from D20 and I am against the unit design threads being pedantically D20.

    I am also not suggesting flat out ignoring D20. I am saying lets open up the unit design discussion generically so that everyone can have a voice. Lets face it, how many people who play 4X games also know the D20 source book? Once the framework of a unit has been established, then the D20 cookie cutter can be pressed down on top of that framework and we'll see what fits and what doesn't.
    Last edited by ampoliros; 05-29-2013 at 11:06 PM. Reason: cleaned up, posts 15 and 17 state my case

  10. #10
    Archmage of the Central Tower Happerry's Avatar
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    Are you trying to be ignorant? Yes, monsters are balanced, because they have a Challenge Rating that shows how strong they are. You can look at these challenge ratings and know how strong monsters are, and, as the challenge rating was designed to allow DMs to know how the monsters would interact with adventurers, they are in fact balanced with both NPC and PC classes.

    You may come from a gaming environment that uses lots of house rules, but guess what? If you do show anyone who wants to use the base game the door, you're the only group I've ever heard of that does that.

    Frankly, at this point, looking at your statements (No units have been copy pasted Verses me providing links to more then two places where things were being directly drawn from the SRD as in all my examples, Factions with no playable units verses every official faction unit list on the forum having both NPC classes, PC classes, and monsters from the SRD), you are either trolling or being deliberately oblivious. You can continue to complain about people using the system the Game Designers have said they are using for units all you want, but either way, I am no longer obliged to waste my time arguing with someone who won't pay attention to what they are shown.

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