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Thread: Unit Design - In General

  1. #11
    Archmage of the Inner Ring ampoliros's Avatar
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    One thing that hit me like a ton of bricks today that I'm guessing is a huge source of confusion is I don't have an issue with the D20 class system and I have not been lumping classes in with my concerns. Admittedly I have had tunnel vision specifically to race and monsters and I apologize for any confusion my tunnel vision may have caused. I guess it's because I don't have an issue with classes coupled with the fact that there has been little direct discussion about class.

    The fact still remains that I do have an issue with the pedantically totalitarian statements along the lines of "race Z has racial special A, so blah blah" or "monster X has ability B and is this size, so blah blah." What is so very wrong with OPEN discussions about unit design while leaving D20 specific verbiage out of the discussion until the end??? What is so very wrong with exploring the possibility that a playable race in WoM might not be exactly cookie cutter out of D20?

    If spontaneous heroes are going to be allowed out of minotaurs or trolls or other D20 non-playable monsters, then WoM necessarily has to define what the minotaur race is for base units so that a class can be added to it. If this happens, why not allow for different definitions of the D20 playable races too?

    I very strongly believe taking the D&D denizens verbatim and plopping them into WoM is not in the spirit of MoM. Combining two completely different universes in this manner is just wrong.

    Taking a combat system from one game does not mean taking its creatures as well.

    You have not shown me a single link that begins to explain your points. Instead you have only cemented the concerns I have. You have obviously missed my concerns entirely.

  2. #12
    Archmage of the Central Tower Happerry's Avatar
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    I already wrote up a list for a fey faction that modified the standard fey monster abilities. Perhaps you should go read the race thread for them if you feel we are slavishly copy pasting? And have you bothered to read the SRD at all? Both of the races you mention, minotaurs and trolls, already have rules for using them as playable characters besides rawring monsters. They aren't even hidden, being as their on the creature's stat pages.

    And, again, as I said, if you don't want us to use the already balanced and designed monsters that are in the system the game developers have decided to use for the game.. well, you can try making your own, as I already suggested, but you aren't going to have much luck in convincing people to do everything the hard way.

    Really, at this point either your not paying attention to what we've been doing on the forums and just going 'ah evil dnd terms!' or your trying to troll people by trying to insist that we ignore the system the units work in to design them, as far as I can tell what you've been writing. I'm not sure which one it is, and at this point I don't really care. Both are equally annoying.

  3. #13
    Archmage of the Inner Ring ampoliros's Avatar
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    You still don't get it. I don't have an issue with feats/abilities/what-have-you as general game mechanics. My problem is that you D20 purists have slammed the door shut on any open discussion about any creature that happens to have an entry in the SRD.

    I don't understand how you can continue to claim the devs have "already decided to use" the D20 creatures verbatim. The links you provided do not show that.

    I have also blown your "balance" argument clear out of the water. Units alone to not make a faction. Whether they are balanced (and against what I'm not sure) or not does not matter, there are too many factors in a faction to claim that units balance themselves out between factions naturally.

    And as far as your "do everything the hard way" comment. For players with less than your level of D20 knowledge (all the way to zero), there is no "hard way". I just would like to see open discussions that can include everyone who wants to contribute without literal D20 this and that thrown in their faces.
    Last edited by ampoliros; 05-11-2013 at 02:27 AM.

  4. #14
    Archmage of the Central Tower Happerry's Avatar
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    ..I was going to just ignore you, but then you started lying about blowing my balance argument out of the water. Lets go over a few of your statements...

    * Each faction needs to have an entire unit list of varying strength units. Unless they are all exactly the same just with different graphics, balance issues.
    Yes, which is why they are using the SRD, for an easy to balance selection of units and monsters that can be casually compared to each other. With the challenge rating/class levels. (Which are pretty much the same thing, being that a monsters level adjustment, which says what level they will be when given character levels, is equal to their challenge rating in general..)

    * The suggested factions so far all have monsters as part of the list. Monsters are developed differently than playable characters, balance issues.
    Oh dear, monsters are different! I mean, they only use the exact same stats, abilities, types of damage, health, saves, and special abilities that NPCs and PCs can get! And they're even balanced against those classes with their challenge rating!

    ..Oh, wait, there isn't any difference and there isn't any balance issues.

    * A faction is not just units, but also buildings, faction specials, etc... - balance issues.
    Yes, and this has anything to do with discussing the factions units, which is what we've been doing, how? That stuff isn't even on the board because we haven't been told anything about them.

    * Let us not forget that there are entire factions without a single playable character in them, balance issues.
    Er, what? I can't even figure out what you mean here. Yes, a faction with no playable units would have issues, if that's what you intended to say, but that's why we are talking about units.

    The entire ball of wax that makes up a faction needs to be considered when balancing one faction vs. another. Wastelands was going to have to perform this juggling act from the beginning no matter what combat system was chosen.
    Yes, but, again, this has what to do with us talking about units given all the information we've been given, which is.. information about units? No one can try to take that into account until they know of the other things, and we haven't been told about those yes, besides some bits for the undead.. which don't have anything directly to do with units.

    The D20 combat system is so separate from what units are chosen. You could have a space combat game using the D20 combat system.
    This here is a prime example of, well, how much you've been ignoring the entire discussions I've been linking to. (And now making pointless arguments too.) Yes, the laws of physics are different from what people are trained in for modern armies, but that doesn't mean they pretend they don't exist any more then we can pretend the rules the units work by don't exist when we are making units. And yes, you could make a space game. Please explain what that fact has to do with units for a fantasy game before that has anything to do with this.

    None of the threads you linked to make any mention of doing a copy and paste of D20 units into WoM.
    Besides every link I made having to do with the mods importing dnd units and classes you mean? And also this, where they give us a direct link to the monster manual to look at something they are adding to the undead faction...

    D20 combat is not mutually exclusive with a spiritual successor to MoM. Copy and paste of D20 units is mutually exclusive with a spiritual successor to MoM.
    The first point is cheerfully agreed to. The second point requires you to provide proof instead of simply proclaiming that when the mods are cheerfully importing monsters and classes for this game.

    I have not once said I am against the D20 combat system or whatever abilities/feats a unit can have. I am against every unit being literally lifted from D20 and I am against the unit design threads being pedantically D20.
    So, basically, you don't mind if we use the rules as long as we don't use the rules that units work in to design units?

    I am also not suggesting flat out ignoring D20. I am saying lets open up the unit design discussion generically so that everyone can have a voice. Lets face it, how many people who play 4X games also know the D20 source book? Once the framework of a unit has been established, then the D20 cookie cutter can be pressed down on top of that framework and we'll see what fits and what doesn't
    So, what, again, you want us to ignore the rules that units work in when we are making units? Ok, lets try that. Lets make a Heavy Cavalry Unit! With a Lance! Wait, lances are a Specific DND Weapon, so we can use them while avoiding units with DND rules. I guess we're just stuck with a Heavy Cavalry Unit.

    Hum, can we go farther? No, now is the time to decide what equipment they have and what they ride, which is.. done in the rule set that provides information on what they can ride and what equipment actually does. Oh well, it was a nice try.

    Or, to sum it up, no you haven't proven anything about balance.

    Edit: Yes, some people don't know how D20 rules work. Some people don't know how Age of Wonders rules work either, and generally they are sane enough to try to learn them before complaining about the suggestion sfor that game using the rules Age of Wonders works on.
    Last edited by Happerry; 05-11-2013 at 03:11 AM.

  5. #15
    Archmage of the Inner Ring ampoliros's Avatar
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    You are still not seeing the forest for the trees. You are still closed minded from the point of view that monster X has to be exactly like it is in D20. All I want is open discussions. An ogre can still be an ogre without being a D20 ogre.
    If every denizen is a carbon copy from D20 then you might as well call this game Worlds of D20.

  6. #16
    Mage’s Assistant Belgariad87's Avatar
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    ... they're giving spearmen d20 equipment?
    Malleus the Magician + Fang the Draconian = OP

  7. #17
    Archmage of the Inner Ring ampoliros's Avatar
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    To illustrate the importance of open discussions...

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
    The answer is simply that most (if not all) of the D20 complexities will be hidden from players that have no interest in them.
    Since Wastelands does not expect all players to know D20 and the purpose of these forums is to gather everybody's input then open discussions without D20 literal interpretations slamming doors shut are paramount.

    I understand user input is just that, input. Wastelands is obviously free to pick and choose whatever input they want. But the input needs to be able to be given freely without a tiny handful of users slamming doors shut in other users faces.

    For the record I don't have a problem with D20 game mechanics, that much should be abundantly clear by now. So explaining what cleave or tumble does doesn't bother me. Insisting that a unicorn must be exactly what the SRD says does.
    Last edited by ampoliros; 05-11-2013 at 05:28 PM.

  8. #18
    Archmage of the Central Tower Happerry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belgariad87 View Post
    ... they're giving spearmen d20 equipment?
    Yes, as mentioned in the high men unit thread where the spearmen are called out as both the NPC warrior class and having Longspears instead of normal spears, which is a specific d20 equipment. (That really should be renamed the pike)

  9. #19
    i think amporilos have similar problem with D&D and WoM as I. Problem is not copying rules, feats, clases, workings of equipment and other MECHANICS, but import of LORE from D&D instead of making own MoM universe. Creatures in D&D look to me more like they are made from mix-match and min-max to give challenge to players, stories and lore are made 2nd class as afterthought (apologizing to everybody who like D&D novels and similar). Isnt it beginning hack-slash dungeon crawler, heroes put in random cave tunnels and similar with random collection of monsters with less thinking of how creatures presence and abilities make sense in dungeon and more how to make hell of so called "heroes" life? And than made story behind creatures, with intentional just partly complete story to hide black plot hole? (plese shotgunt to kill rambling, bllaa-blaa-blaa machine)

    For example mentions of golems being to powerfull for dwarfs so for example adding animated suites of animated object variety (or using golems of only stone or weaker metal, way would dwarf make brass, copper or aluminium, instead of clay, iron and maybe adamantium, originaly isnt golem human shaped clay statue, have maybe paper with name of god writen on it in mouth, or additional detail like word life written on Hebrew on head witch animate it, delete first letter and rest of word mean death and golem lose power, become just statue, or is word on paper

    we have to much mix-match in folklore and entertainment, like abilities of vampire, like bram stokers dracula (can walk on day, no becoming ash like modern blade vampires as example, but cant shape-shift for example to human, mist, bat, wolf except at noon and night,cross running water i think, need sleep on soil from grave, can hypnotise?, maybe create idea of him as type of black mage who became vampire instead of lich, ussualy vampires is not powerful aristocrat, Dracula i exception, since its usually suicide man who became uncontrollable instinctive monster, i think its in folklore somewhere that they become it depending on country, there are many stories of blood drinking monsters, striga i guess for example of vampire creature, is she from greek, italy/rome or countries in between) , blade's vampires, twilight, war of werewolf and vampire in underworld i guess. In world of darkness ghoul is human drinking vampire blood of whom he is slave, in meddle east i think its humanoid with canine features, gravedigger and eat that or am i mistaken?

    we arent needed to use only D&D version of monsters or at all.

    ---------- Post added at 11:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:13 AM ----------

    also i think that for example ogre or troll didn't had regeneration and became stone on sun in folklore, from where they come?

    ---------- Post added at 11:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:22 AM ----------

    basically is, offensively simplified, is WoM ripoff in lore/story/background of D&D or standing on its of as successor of MoM?
    Last edited by Spellcaster; 07-11-2013 at 12:20 PM.

  10. #20
    Mage’s Assistant baenre's Avatar
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    I love me some lore in many games, and I don't mind or even object to lore in WoM, but I also don't think it is a strictly necessary thing. Did MoM have any Lore at all? I asked myself that question and realized I can't think of 1 bit of MoM lore. I just glanced through the user guide, nothing about a backstory. The only glimmer of one is in the intro video (Old Man, You seek the spell of mastery!). The lack of lore in MoM didn't hold it back I think. Just something to think about

    Also I agree that D&D monsters don't have to be the end all be all of what we run into. I don't have any particular thoughts right now. but If someone were to suggest some different monsters or abilities, I'd love to see it.

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