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Thread: Unit Design - In General

  1. #21
    Archmage of the Outer Ring jamoecw's Avatar
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    D20 has no lore, D&D does, which is copyrighted and thus isn't getting used.

    D20 has rules for altering things so you have an idea of power levels and such, so you can alter any D20 creature however you want and still have an idea of how it will balance.

    ampoliros even admitted that the units being talked about aren't carbon copies of D20 units, only that people are intimidated by the large content of D20 creatures, but seems reluctant to provide his own version.

    MoM did indeed have no lore, i don't know how WoM is going to deal with lore, if at all, so far only mechanics have been discussed, and full D20 isn't going to get implemented, how much is, i am not sure.

    D&D lore is weak, and generally worlds are built using their own lore and then using modified D&D rulesets (greyhawk, forgotten realms, etc.), in fact it is for the most part meant as a ruleset for balance purposes so that one can make their own lore and reasons as to why things are were they are and doing what they are doing. dungeons don't have to a series of tunnels and caves, but can be the wilderness along a coast or a city, pretty much anywhere. as for how extensive are the rules, well the have seige rules, army rules, pretty much everything except 4x economy rules (which is pretty important in a 4x game).

  2. #22
    Archmage of the Inner Ring ampoliros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamoecw View Post
    ampoliros even admitted that the units being talked about aren't carbon copies of D20 units, only that people are intimidated by the large content of D20 creatures, but seems reluctant to provide his own version.
    ummmm, I don't recall admitting they are not carbon copies. That's my main beef with what was being presented up to the point I started this thread - that they _were_ carbon copies out of D20.

    As far as presenting my own, I was trying to get the community to rally behind me, but the D20 aficionados kept slamming the door shut.

    At this point in time I believe that the door has been opened to talking about units generally without all the direct references to D20. In the backer forum, the elf discussion does have a lot of suggestions sans D20 elements, including a list of my own.

    As far as MoM lore goes, the manual did provide some, but admittedly hardly any made it into the in-game text. The MoM wiki reproduces some/all of the MoM manual here and there.

  3. #23
    I think the Undead faction has really gone a long way to help us get past the "You can only use classes straight out of D20" mentality. D20 is a great tool, but it's not the only tool.
    My RPG Design and Theory Blog: http://socratesrpg.blogspot.com/

  4. #24
    Archmage of the Central Tower Happerry's Avatar
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    As I said the last time this came up, if you make a database of things not in the SRD that are balanced and built as per DND rules, I'll use them. Until then, I'll keep using the resources for the system the Gamedevs said they were using.

    ...And as the Undead use lots and lots of stuff directly out of D20 anyway, so I'm not sure where you are getting that from.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Happerry View Post
    As I said the last time this came up, if you make a database of things not in the SRD that are balanced and built as per DND rules, I'll use them. Until then, I'll keep using the resources for the system the Gamedevs said they were using.

    ...And as the Undead use lots and lots of stuff directly out of D20 anyway, so I'm not sure where you are getting that from.
    Well, for instance, Reaper and Phantom Lancer are not two classes I can locate in the SRD.
    My RPG Design and Theory Blog: http://socratesrpg.blogspot.com/

  6. #26
    Archmage of the Central Tower Happerry's Avatar
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    This would be because Reapers are Skeletons. Yes, Skellys armed with Scythes instead of the more normal swords.. but still just normal DND Skeletons. While Phantom Lancers don't actually have a statpage up, odds are that they are also Skeletons, just this time on horses and perhaps with class levels. And better gear.

    Because the whole point of them using d20, as stated in the web page, is to have an already mostly balanced framework to draw stuff from. As such, when a unit is made of skeletons, you use.. the already existing skeletons that are already balanced and designed for you.

  7. #27
    looked some "abominations" (not necessarily literally this class type) of D20 and am of opinion that person who use them without checking intended lore of game and creatures abilities is playing D&D too much if he think some abilities like clay golem's ability "A disintegrate spell slows the golem (as the slow spell) for 1d6 rounds and deals 1d12 points of damage." are something completely normal". This aint golem anymore like golem from MoM of dwarfes and even less from its original story.

    if monsters from d20 are used, they will need really careful checking of abilities they have. good no one use monsters from forums about d&d like insanity http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101587

    what is current idea for design of creatures (if there was any definite word from creator) that are not in some faction (like elves, human, undead) but summonable one and that are found in world?

    ---------- Post added at 09:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:14 AM ----------

    by the way looking as way to kill boredom from where are unicorns ability to teleport but they seem to be "actually exist" in real world ;-)

    from http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Unicorn

    Pliny the Elder was one of the earliest writers to study unicorns and certainly one of the most influential: "The unicorn (monocerotem) is the fiercest animal, and it is said that it is impossible to capture one alive. It has the body of a horse, the head of a stag, the feet of an elephant, the tail of a boar, and a single black horn three feet long in the middle of its forehead. Its cry is a deep bellow." We recognize this today as a very fair description of a Rhinoceros.

    ---------- Post added at 09:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:23 AM ----------

    unicorn version believed initially to belong to winter court of fey (cruel, "evil", monsterous are initaly description on first sight) in dresden files for that d&d playes with cliches arent only way.

    The unicorn looked like a Budweiser horse, one of the huge draft beasts used for heavy labor. It had to have been eighteen hands high, maybe more. It had a broad chest, four heavy hooves, forward-pricked ears, and a long equine face.

    That was where its resemblance to a Clydesdale ended.

    It didn't have a coat. It just had a smooth and slick-looking carapace, all chitinous scales and plates, mixing colors of dark green and midnight black. Its hooves were cloven and stained with old blood. One spiraling horn rose from its forehead, at least three feet long and wickedly pointed. The spirals were serrated on the edges, some of them covered with rust-brown stains. A pair of curling horns, like those of a bighorn sheep, curved around the sides of its head from the base of the horn. It didn't have any eyes-just smooth, leathery chitin where they should have been. It tossed its head, and a mane of rotted cobwebs danced around its neck and forelegs, long and tattered as a burial shroud.

  8. #28
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    I don't think the devs have to stick blindly to D20. Let them experiment and come up with their own stuff

  9. #29
    Archmage of the Inner Ring ampoliros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellderon View Post
    I don't think the devs have to stick blindly to D20. Let them experiment and come up with their own stuff
    And in fact they are... Recently they stated that the order of rulesets is: MoM-like > D20-like > other

  10. #30
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    I don't see how using D20 to balance the game means they need to copy the exact units. As Happery already demonstrated in earlier posts they are mapping the units they want to make onto D20 units, so the unit will be balanced. In theory they could make a flying elephant that came from the circus and map it onto a water dragon template.

    I am really happy they are putting the strategy element above the role playing element, as it is supposed to be a strategy game. Else it would turn into a find silver bullet to kill wherewolf thing which is not the kind of thing MoM fans like me are waiting for. The D20 system will help the balancing a lot, which is to me the biggest risk to this kind of game. Often one units end up being useless where others are overpowered.

    One you are right is it that would be nice is if they didn't make all units available to everyone. In the old MoM you could just capture a draconian town and get all their super units even though you are playing halfling. And as capturing was better than settling you just ended up playing whatever races where next to you in the neutral towns. It is good for replay value if playing each race/magic type is unique.

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