Charm Sorcerer Lord

[Aaron]

Charm Sorcerer Lord
Circles: Water, Mentalism
Description: Massively improves relations with the selected Sorcerer Lord. In addition any war between you and the target immediately ends. Should the spell be resisted by the target diplomatic relations are ruined.

OK, first I think it belongs in Water because the “friendship” is an illusion. Of course, the argument could be made that it belongs in Death because it's deception. With a normal Charm spell the caster is simply wanting to use the charmed entity, there's not necessarily any “ill intent” toward the target. This spell is different, it's actually targeting someone you are personally struggling against. So, in my mind, it could be a Death spell.

At first it may look like this spell would only be useful against the AI, but we could certainly make it work player versus player. While it was in effect the “charmed” Sorcerer Lord couldn't attacker his “charmer”. We could also make I it where the caster could force the target to except ONE diplomatic policy. A single trade agreement or what have you.

The “charmed” Sorcerer Lord would need to get a “Saving throw” each turn to overcome the effects, but couldn't cast “Dispel Magic” on the spell as he wouldn't believe it had been cast. Another Sorcerer Lord could dispel it, however. Also, as with all charm spells, any direct aggressive action would dispel it. So, if the charmer attacked the charmed's armies the spell would end. I think it could make for some very interesting diplomatic mechanics.

Anyways, that's the pitch. What do you guys think?

Do you like it? What Circles does it belong in? Do you have anything to add?

[Trudd]

Mentalism and water sounds good for me.
Maybe Mentalism alone if not...

For the way the spell woks, the saving throw should be more difficult with time. -1 by turn for example.
Because the more you are "friend" with him, the easier it is to maintain the spell. and without external help, it can be definitive.

A little like with Sauron. The more you are with him, the more difficult the breaking of the link is.

[Tiavals]

I really like the idea of a "forced" diplomatic deal, but only in regards to long range deals like Alliance, Non-Aggression Pact, Trade Agreement, Research Pact, etc. As for one off trades, maybe. If it works the way these usually work, meaning each trade item has an inherent value, then the spell might add a bulk "Charm Sorcerer Lord" trade item that has value scaled on the amount of mana you used to cast it. Like, 5 value per mana. So if you use 100 mana to cast it, it has a value of 500. If a single point of mana is normally worth 1, it means you could trade the spell-effect for 500 mana from an enemy(of course, normal limits apply, like the AI isn't going to trade away all of it's mana if it means it can't pay the upkeep of it's spells and so on).

[devoncop]

Like the idea of the spell and Mentalism/Death sounds good to me. I would be wary of the forced trade idea though as it could ruin a player's chances significantly if a rare but important resource to their faction which they had spent half the game aquiring got swapped for a bargain load of wood from their "new best friend"

While I see the logic re the Sauron reference I am also not sure making the save more difficult as time passes is the way to go. If it were cast on you as a player it would effectively make a domination victory impossible, and remember this may be an option you have chosen way back at the beginning of the game. Yes, it would be less destructive to game enjoyment if it only applied to the AI Sorcerer Lords but the last thing we should be doing is cheating against the AI by artificially handicapping its chances.

[kilobug]

I like the cumulative penalty, but I understand it's quite crippling if you can't ever dispel it. Maybe an option to get around the spell would be to have heroes under your command dispel it ? Not sure how the magic will work for heroes, but heroes dispelling a charm spell binding their masters/allies sound very typical in fantasy settings (like, Gandalf and Theoden).

[ampoliros]

I think this spell should have one of, if not the highest mana upkeeps in the game. I like the spell in principle. I even like the harder to resist over time, but maybe only gets harder every 5 or 10 turns.

To keep the spell from being abused I think the huge diplomatic hit needs to happen no matter what when the spell is cast. If it fails you see the real diplo value right away. If the spell succeeds, the diplo hit still happens, it's just masked by the effect until the spell is finally resisted/dispelled.

[Aaron]

I agree with both the high upkeep cost and the diplomatic hit

[Troy_Costisick]

The name "Charm Sorcerer Lord" might be a bit misleading. Charm spells have historically meant a more controlling spell. Instead, a more political term like "Charm Offensive" or "Subversive Friendship" might be more appropriate.

[Asmodai]

I don't know what "Massively improves relations" really means since diplomacy has yet to be fleshed out but this spell seems EXTREMELY powerful. In fact in a 1 on 1 game if it can force an alliance and alliance victory is enabled then it's a game winning spell (who needs the spell of mastery?)

I like the general idea of a "Charm sorcerer lord" spell but I tend to think it should just mean that the charmed sorcerer lord can't attack you or break already agreed upon positive treaty. This means it can have the exact same effect on CPU and Player targets. Each turn you should get a chance to save to break the charm, it should have high upkeep, and it should automatically break if the caster attacks the charmed sorcerer.

So you could charm an enemy you are at war with and while technically you would remain at war they wouldn't be able to attack you (nor you attack them without breaking the spell) which makes the war effectively on pause until the spell ends.
You could charm someone you have an agreement with who you believe may be getting to break the agreement in order to hold them to it. For example lets say you have an open borders treaty with another sorcerer for 20 turns, on turn 3 you believe they are going to break the treaty you can charm them to bind them to the treaty. (NOTE if the treaty naturally expires after 20 turns being charmed wouldn't make them automatically renew it or extend it beyond 20 turns)

I don't think it should FORCE agreement to new treaties. Depending on how diplomacy works it may give you a boost in negotiating new treaties with the AI but I don't think it should be automatic. The negotiating boost may even effect such things as spell trading (if that's even in the game) possibly making them willing to trade a spell they wouldn't have otherwise or at least expect less in return however it won't force them to make a completely stupid trade, it's just a boost not a guarantee. Again that really all depends on how diplomacy normally works.

[Aaron]

Keep in mind we're talking very general terms here. So, whatever shape the diplomatic system takes Charm Sorcerer Lord (whatever the final name is) will "massively improves relations" (whatever that means).

The power of the spell is going to change the research, casting, and maintenance cost of the spell. I think it would be fine to make it powerful enough to win the game. Some global enchantments are supposed to be super powerful.

We can also put specific limitations on it. For instance we could keep it from working with spell trading. (Spell trading may not even make it in. It's dangerous ground, lol.) It will also have to overcome the target's casting skill and protective spells. That makes casting it and defending against it a more tactical decision IMO.

We could trim it down, but I would rather increase the costs. Make it super powerful and super costly. I think it's more fun that way