View Poll Results: Mixed Population in cities

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  • Mixed Population - yes

    21 41.18%
  • don´t care

    3 5.88%
  • Only one race per city - no

    27 52.94%
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Thread: Mixed Population in Cities

  1. #11
    Mage of the Inner Tower Endless Rain's Avatar
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    Mixed Population in cities is something I think should wait for expansions. Even then, it should be optional.

    EDIT: I now think it should be included in the base game.
    Last edited by Endless Rain; 01-10-2014 at 05:19 AM.

  2. #12
    Battlemage Cirno9destiny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamoecw View Post
    there was some talk about having some mixed race buildings for one race that exists within the empire mainly made up from another race (like a half elven building or half dwarf building), which is a good idea, but as far as mixing races within a city that adds a level of complexity (if done right) that most wouldn't want, or it could be something as simple as full pop points of different races that don't have any other mechanics (which is lame).

    before i see different races, i'd like to see race specific political parties that affect things in the city and maybe across your empire, and before that i'd like to see mixed culture buildings for mixed culture empires. so it isn't so much as no as it is 'low on the totem pole.'
    Didn't I come up with that mixed race build idea or am i just stealing credit :P
    I basically agree with the above regardless. :3
    'Everything you wanted to know about Dark Elves that i'm allowed to post' - thread coming soon

  3. #13
    Archmage of the Outer Ring jamoecw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirno9destiny View Post
    Didn't I come up with that mixed race build idea or am i just stealing credit :P
    I basically agree with the above regardless. :3
    Quote Originally Posted by Cirno9destiny View Post
    Maybe you could use something simple for a bit of flavour.
    Dark elves and Elves always raze each others cities
    Ground based Dwarfs and Air born Draconians always raze each others cities.

    And each 'starting race' will cause race specific buildings/items to be avalible/disabled. for other races cities.
    Like an elf city taking over a Highman City would lose... axemen and Alehouse but gain fencers and Winebars. (Humans prefe ale over wine so less happy but fencers are more dodgey and less Hit pointy than axemen)
    or something like a Dwarf City getting a Elf city would get an Elf Mine (+gold) and Mythril warlords and an elf starting race getting a Dwarf City would allow the dwarfs to have Longbow Dwarfs and Rock plants (+ food/trees)
    My examples are horrible but you can see what I mean, right? The idea might also be horrible as well XD.
    its a good idea, took a bit to find the post, but yep it was you.

  4. #14
    Battlemage Cirno9destiny's Avatar
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    Yay! I'm not as insane as I thought.
    'Everything you wanted to know about Dark Elves that i'm allowed to post' - thread coming soon

  5. #15
    If cities are not the absolute representative of the hole population in an empire, than we have to be careful. In every society there are minorities which live normally in geographic pockets of a country and+or at least in the capital of the country. In the middle ages in europe the differentiation was made up by religion. Christians, jews and in spain also muslims lived in segregated parts of the same city although especially the bigger religion groups threated the smaller ones unfair, very bad or in case of the rhinelander jews they were prosecuted for beeing heathens. I don´t say mixed cities shall be a place were everything works out fine, especially not when you have a "RACIST THINKING" with differentiation of DARK vs HIGH Elves...
    (I don´t wand to accuse someone being a racist.)
    I know the code implementation of single population is far easier as if you have
    more than one pop. Therefore i would like to launch an idea to add a simple modifier to citiy which shall reflect the minority proportion in a city. Something rather opaque
    as I don´t think cities in Worlds of Magic has no high standart beaucracy which
    could conduct a presise census , something like a bar off (on/from?) which you can see
    if the population is rather mixed or "pure".
    BUT the city bonuses every city acquires are coming from the ruling class of a city and
    maybe if the ruling elite is not part of the pop majority it may cause additional trouble.
    By events such as riots the player may be capable of changing the ruling class in a city
    and turn f.exe. a "Dwarf city" into a "Human" one (Oh i don´t like the racesisms...).
    What do you think of it, pls comment.
    Last edited by Teppic; 11-08-2013 at 10:19 AM.

  6. #16
    Actually it would be interesting to implement some tolerance or oppression mechanics with each strategy give some pros and cons. Probably something alike was done in Distant Worlds.
    I do think that oppression and racism for can bring more depth and flavor into the game. And yes I would be happy to play for example some arrogant high-elf racist-life-magic user.

    However I voted against - because i do not think the result is worth the cost for now. Step by step...

  7. #17
    Arcane Candidate
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    New member here.
    This is my first post!

    I LOVE the idea of mixed races in cities.
    However, I would agree that it's a great idea which should probably wait for a DLC.
    Perhaps there's a diplomacy/culture/religion DLC in our future where a lot of these complicated inter-operable dynamics can be sussed out together?
    Civ 4 handled this really, really well with its multi-cultural immigration patterns ruled by cultural border expansion and handling of religion. (more on this below)
    I like a lot of the ideas Teppic lays out above and would like to address a few.

    A few quick thoughts as I read through this thread.
    1) In our real world, economies with growth and opportunity are a gravity well of immigration wherever they are in the world. The people of under-performing economies and in war-torn regions will seek out safer places with more economic opportunity. They bring with them cheap labor that greases the wheels of an economy, as well as new skills and ideas. Integrating these cultures is almost always a difficult process which takes generations to smooth out unrest. However, racially and culturally diverse polities are usually more economically powerful and resilient, and enjoy better relations with the neighboring countries where the immigrants came from.
    On the flip side, this diversity can tear the social fabric and identity of the pre-existing regime. Defending the nation, mustering for war, and suffering the slings and arrows of economic downturns are far more difficult when a sense of shared identity is nebulous or even non-existent. It is far easier to rally people to defend their neighbors and their way of life when they deeply relate to their neighbors and deeply understand and share their way of life.
    All of this can be worked out with some fun math!

    2) Perhaps there would be a set "desirability" indexes for each city per race per religion; which is a simple algorithm of something like...

    (FoodSurplus / NativeRaceGrowthRate)

    + (EconomicOutput * EconomicSystemMultiplier)

    + (PluralismRating * (NominalSizeOfExistingMinorityCommunity / ProportionalSizeofExistingMinorityCommunity))

    + (ReligiousToleranceRating * (NominalSizeOfExistingReligiousCommunity / ProportionalSizeOfExistingMinorityCommunity)

    - (ExistingUnrest))
    ‘Desirability Index’

    ---------- Post added at 11:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:17 AM ----------

    3) At the beginning of each turn, each city on the board runs this host of simple computations which builds out a table of 'desirability indexes' for each race and religion. When there is another city within geographical range representing a considerable 'gravity well' of desirability for my race and religion, I will want to move there.
    After a sustained number of turns (say, 5 turns) where those conditions remain appealing, people start moving. Those in the less desirable city, within a specific race+religion population, will start to emigrate to the 'gravity well' of peace and opportunity where the ‘desirability index’ for their race+religion is favorable.

    4) Using a system loosely based on the calculation above would allow for more tolerant rulers to dedicate their resources to creating favorable conditions for immigration - ultimately building towards some supremely beneficial mixed-race units and buildings. They could ensure availability of food, availability of economic opportunity, and appeasement of unrest by investing in civic and religious buildings and policies.
    Conversely, they could seek a racially and religiously 'pure' city which produces other elite units and defenses, and suffers less unrest when conditions in a city turn temporarily sour.


    5) The first time these immigrants of this race+religion arrive at your city walls, you are prompted as to whether or not you want to accept them.

    6) Ordinary functions could be improved by the presence of minority groups.
    Instead of using the one person per tile rule of Civs, like Teppic was suggesting, you keep the interface simple on the user and just run the math in the background.

    Building/Resource output = (Population1Efficiency * Population1Proportion) + (Population2Efficiency * Population2Proportion) (repeat for presence of further races)

    I like the example used earlier in this thread about dwarves:
    Suppose you start out with a high-men city, population of 10. Then over a few turns it grows to a population of 12, with the growth coming in dwarves = 10 high-men, 2 dwarves. You have a gold mine in that city.
    Let's say high-men get 100% use out of the gold mine, the dwarves 200%
    Let's look at the production of the mine in these two scenarios.

    10 High-Men (100% of population):
    (100 * 1) = 100% = 10 hammers

    10 High-Men (83%) with 2 Dwarves (17%):
    (100 * .83) + (200 * .17) = 117% = 11.7 hammers

    10 High-Men (66%) with 5 Dwarves (33%):
    (100 * .66) + (200 * .33) = 133% = 13.2 hammers

    You'll notice that as you add more dwarves, the contribution of the high-men begins to deteriorate; as opposed to the presence of the dwarves simply adding on extra production. Meaning that the same 10 high-men are contributing less and less. In the first case, those 10 high-men contribute 10 hammers at 100% output. In the second case those same 10 high-men are only contributing 83% output, or 8.3 hammers. This makes sense to me, as working in a heterogeneous environment brings communication shortfalls and inefficiencies. However, the presence of the dwarves is definitely worth the investment because you get a larger net return. You could also add a performance smoother which diminishes the negative effect over time, as the two races learn to work with one another; reflecting society’s penchant to ‘integrate’ immigrants over several generations.

    ---------- Post added at 11:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:18 AM ----------

    7) Race-specific buildings should be made available to the city, but can only receive hammers in construction proportional to the presence of that race in the city.

    Suppose the dwarves have a special “Dwarven Gold Mine” building which no other races have, which essentially doubles their already impressive output (200% Dwarf Mining Bonus + 200% “Dwarven Gold Mine” Total Bonus = 400% output from gold tiles).

    Now, you’ve got that high-men city and you are slowly absorbing immigrating dwarves from a nearby NPC city. Let’s also suppose that the only production in your city is coming from that one mine tile. (I know, a city that size will have several production tiles but this is just a simple example.

    Let’s go to this one:
    10 High-Men (83%) with 2 Dwarves (17%):
    (100 * .83) + (200 * .17) = 117% = 11.7 hammers

    In this case, the special “Dwarven Gold Mine” would not receive the full 11.7 hammers towards its construction, but would only receive the 3.4 hammers coming from the Dwarves.

    Once the building is built, it is worked only by the dwarves. (If you want a special “Dwarves Alongside High-Men” building, look below in unique buildings)

    8) Special Buildings should be made available to any city with any mixed population, and should receive multipliers as a reward for the presence of more minority races, as well as higher proportional balance in races. (i.e. A "Grand Bazaar" market with performance bonuses for people coming from far-flung races and cultures.)

    9) Unique Buildings could be made like unique weapons, and require a similar level of investment.

    You could make a special “Mines of Moria” whereby you can choose a number of options.
    -You could give it a 400% bonus (Huge Expense)
    -You could make it a Dwarves+High-Men Operation (Medium Expense)
    -You could also add an Unrest dampener (Medium Expense)
    The list of available ‘upgrades’ for constructing a unique building would be a whole separate topic, but many of them could include dampening effects on the unrest from having a diverse population, or could include rewards for population purity.
    Special buildings could also have specific effects which encourage or discourage diversity itself. A ruler looking for a ‘pure’ culture could fabricate a special “Temple of Purity” which severely affects the ‘desirability index’ of specific races (cheap) or a blanket effect which covers all other races (expensive). A similar building could be made for those looking for diversity.
    10) Religion can work essentially the same way and have a balancing/compounding effect. Back to Civ 4 and some interesting dynamics there. For example, trade routes between cities would bring with them the shared exchange of religions and immigration. The balance of that exchange being manipulated by buildings and policies which increase or block religious expansion. Furthermore, you could send missionaries to spread religion to a city (foreign or domestic) rapidly. Within any given city, you could then build 'competing' temples which not only helped to grow the religious growth of the religion for that specific temple, but also grew the religious fervor of your population on the whole. Furthermore, your overall religious fervor could be stoked or mitigated


    Bottom line,
    It's a simple looking dynamic which actually takes quite a bit of work to implement, let alone get the balances right.
    I would love to see it in a DLC along with a robust diplomacy system and the addition of religions.

  8. #18
    rambleon33, this is a big subject and I don't have time to really weigh in with all the testing that we're doing now. However, I will say that it's something we can look at with future expansions and DLC
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  9. #19
    Archmage of the Outer Ring jamoecw's Avatar
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    You'll notice that as you add more dwarves, the contribution of the high-men begins to deteriorate
    actually their contribution is still as much as it would be if the extra population was high men. ultimately all that is done in the calculations is an averaging of production:

    10 High-Men (100% of population):
    (100 * 1) = 100% = 10 hammers

    10 High-Men (83%) with 2 Dwarves (17%):
    (100 * .83) + (200 * .17) = 117% = 11.7 hammers

    10 High-Men (66%) with 5 Dwarves (33%):
    (100 * .66) + (200 * .33) = 133% = 13.2 hammers
    10 High-Men (100% of population):
    (100 * 1) = 100% = 10 hammers

    10 High-Men (83%) with 2 High-Men (17%):
    (100 * .83) + (100 * .17) = 100% = 10 hammers

    10 High-Men (66%) with 5 High-Men (33%):
    (100 * .66) + (100 * .33) = 100% = 10 hammers

    the contribution of the original high men remains constant with the extra population, the effect of the race of the immigrants has no bearing on them. now given that each member gives 1 hammer (a city doesn't give 10 hammers regardless of pop):

    10 High-Men (100% of population):
    (100 * 1)*10 = 100% = 10 hammers

    10 High-Men (83%) with 2 High-Men (17%):
    ((100 * .83) + (100 * .17))*(10+2) = 100% = 12 hammers

    10 High-Men (66%) with 5 High-Men (33%):
    ((100 * .66) + (100 * .33))*(10+5) = 100% = 15 hammers

    10 High-Men (83%) with 2 Dwarves (17%):
    ((100 * .83) + (200 * .17))*(10+2) = 117% = 14.04 hammers

    10 High-Men (66%) with 5 Dwarves (33%):
    ((100 * .66) + (200 * .33))*(10+5) = 133% = 19.95 hammers

    now keep in mind that there is no actual drawback to a mixed population with these calculations (nothing to smooth over with time) as each person is operating at 100% of their capacity. now if the mix result in a drop in their productivity based on how many of them there are:

    10 High-Men (100% of population):
    (100 * 1)*(10*100%) = 100% = 10 hammers

    10 High-Men (83%) with 2 High-Men (17%):
    ((100 * .83) + (100 * .17))*((10*.83)+(2*.17)) = 8.64 hammers (ya i know same race, but just for demonstration purposes)

    10 High-Men (66%) with 5 High-Men (33%):
    ((100 * .66) + (100 * .33))*((10*.66)+(5*.33)) = 8.25 hammers (ya i know same race, but just for demonstration purposes)

    10 High-Men (83%) with 2 Dwarves (17%):
    ((100 * .83) + (200 * .17))*((10*.83)+(2*.17)) = 10.1088 hammers

    10 High-Men (66%) with 5 Dwarves (33%):
    ((100 * .66) + (200 * .33))*((10*.66)+(5*.33)) = 10.9725 hammers

    so now you have a drawback to mixed races, and something to smooth over to get the average production of your races.

    formula breakdown:
    (average production of your races) * (figure racial tension impairment) = initial impaired production

    more detail:
    ( (1st race's value to overall production)+(2nd race's value to overall production) )*( ((# of first race)*(effectiveness of race)) + ((# of second race)*(effectiveness of race)) )

    ----------------------------------------------
    things that reduce racial tension can be done via percentage reduction, which would make racial effectiveness reach 100% no matter where it starts. conversely one could reduce racial tension by a flat amount, which would cause those that have worse starting racial penalties take longer to reach 100% effectiveness (and then you'd have to cap it at 100%). the first method makes the racial stuff simpler, the second allows for more diversity to help reduce racial tension indirectly.

  10. #20
    Mage’s Assistant
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    Distant Worlds have a very interesting take on Multi-racial empires. It would gave you options on how to treat the different groups of populations. IE, you could exterminate, enslave or integrate foreign races. I'm not sure of the math, but racial bonuses would slowly creep into your empire as the % of population increased.

    But yes, mixed population would be really interesting. But would definitely require some proper implementation to not trivialize the concept. For now I think they kept the classic MOM way of having multiracial empires. IE, if you capture a high men city with the high elves, you'll keep the city with it's population and it will grow as a high men city within your high elf empire.

    Looking forward to where this can go!

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